But really, I am not...
Things don't look too pretty for Sheldon Monson's Church of God Assembly right now. A source just revealed that Monson went to the hospital recently for pneumonia. It then emerged that it was most likely COVID.
Apparently, those LCG members who jumped ship when he split from LCG over its COVID precautions are not too enthralled with him. Some have left for other COG groups.
Maybe that is the reason he has this up as the lead on his web site:
Losing members means less money and what would a good Church of God splinter leader do without money?
Another sermon Monson has up is about the proverbial topic of church government. Nothing about Jesus or what his salvational works accomplished but a lot of crap on how important it is for members to know they must follow government, from the top down.
April 10, 2021
Sabbath Services
All right I want to get into the Sermon here today. I want to cover a topic that might not be popular with some, but this isn't a popularity contest. I feel we need to speak the truth no matter what, regardless of the outcome and so I am going to cover a topic that's not been covered by some for a while. But it's a very important topic and several people have discussed this topic with me in recent months. And we live in a time in human history at the end of the age where there is very little respect for authority (Including in the COG movement!). And today I want to talk about government and the Church and what God's form of Church government is and I think that this is something that will be a review for most of you, but for others it may seem a bit self-serving that I'm the guy giving the message on government and that's OK. You can think what you want, we're going to cover what the Bible says.
Nothing like starting a sermon off by being all pissy over people's perceived reactions. Stupid members can never do anything right! What's the point of attending church anymore if all you are going to get is one browbeating after another?
Another source said that none of these leaving Monson's group went to Bob Thiel. Had to laugh at that one.
Any more info available?
44 comments:
Social interaction, activity, and "where your friends are" are the strongest factors in todays COGs for cohesiveness. Percieved truth or doctrine, although a factor rank fifth or sixth on the list.
Well, that's what they get for not wearing a mask. Even UCG is loaded with anti mask people.
This is the funniest post ever !!
These wannabe's forget , but then find out, that the higher up the ladder you insist on going, the more of your behind you expose.
The PLAIN TRUTH about “AUTHORITY” in the so-called COGs
The self-appointed scammer at the top of the religious fraud gets to make up whatever he wants to for teachings, while everyone else is supposed to listen to it and believe it and obey it.
The self-appointed scammer at the top of the religious fraud gets to control everyone else and tell them what to do in every matter, while nobody ever gets to control him or tell him what to do in any matter.
The self-appointed scammer at the top of the religious fraud wants to GET all the money from all the tithes, offerings, building fund donations, fundraisers, “common” thefts, and various other scams, while everyone else is supposed to GIVE their money to the scammer.
The self-appointed scammer at the top of the religious fraud gets to decide whether people get into the kingdom of God or go into the lake of fire, while nobody else gets to decide anything at all.
This is the exact point I had when Sheldon left to form COGASS. He wanted to be in charge, to be top dog. That is exactly why this crap is still being preached today. The government of Church goes: God, then Christ at the head. There is nowhere in the Bible where it is preached then on...then on...then on. When Christ died for all of our sins, He made it possible for all of us to go directly to Him and God. Yes, He uses human vessels, and yes He made some ministers, teachers, apostles, etc. But no way will I ever ever buy into an organization where it says that a self appointed person is the head of the "Church". That is where Meredith, Sheldon, Flurry, Pack, Thiel, Hulme all come into play. There is no love in that. These men all want to have power, money, and prestige. They are not here to do the true work of God, and it is very evident in their approach. It was Meredith who ran his days at WCG, Global, then LCG like a military. If you did not rank, you were scum...and could not even take out the garbage on church days.
Are these people leaving CGA because they somehow thought their group was COVID-proof?
If so, that's extreme faith. Perhaps to the point of tempting God.
All successful societies ate based government from the bottom up, ie, self responsibility first. It's the way America developed from its inception. Originally it was a nation of associations which developed the nation, with government barely present. Compare that with today's top down government mess.
Pathetic Bob can't attract members from any of the COG groups even when they leave and are feed up with problems in their church.
My very first minister was like that. He believed that he was the only one who had a right to make decisions. If any member made a decision, he regarded it as stealing from him. He use to look at me as if so was taking food from babies mouths because I was making my own decisions. This has always been the church culture.
Church Government in the pages of the NT has always struck me as being somewhat vaporous. I was never sure where the buck stopped. It seemed more like the church consisted of a large scattering of autonomous congregations. Communications were slow. Epistles were sent but these were not onerous governmental missives but rather dealt with theology and Christian praxis.
The strongest case against the idea of a monolithic hierarchy governing the First Century church is the relationship between Paul, Peter and James. James, believed to be that James that was the brother of Jesus, was the leader of the Jerusalem church. Peter was given a special position by Christ. But it is interesting that when God started the outreach to the Gentiles, a huge undertaking, he worked neither through James nor Peter but totally ignored any putative hierarchy by working through Paul. Paul wrote in Galatians 1:
“But when God, who had set me apart before I was born and called me through his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, so that I might proclaim him among the Gentiles, I did not confer with any human being, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were already apostles before me, but I went away at once into Arabia, and afterwards I returned to Damascus.”
What if someone had marched into the "Repenthouse" in Pasadena back in the Seventies and informed HWA that a young man who used to be an enemy of the WCG had started a new congregation in some outlying region and that it seemed to be prospering. HWA would have been livid. He would likely have gone on a disfellowshipping spree. Yet this precise event happened within the boundaries of church government in the First Century.
What this means is that a top-down, hierarchical government led by one man is not some holy formula stamped with a special imprimatur by God. If it were the correct and only formula, how would one ever sort out Splinterdom where so man denominations are rooted in some kind of a palace rebellion?
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I am not convinced that Sheldon "wanted to be in charge." In fact, I believe that he is a man who respects the concept of 'government'. However, the point on which Weston and Monson differ is that Monson believes that human authority is limited, where Weston believes that you follow the Church as you would follow Christ, unless they are total heretics that is. Monson said in his sermon--"follow me as I follow Christ, but where I am not following Christ, you can just ignore me" (or words to that effect). Weston says "if you believe that Jesus Christ is leading the Church, you must follow me" (or words to that effect). A somewhat subtle but major difference. Effectively, with the Weston/Meredith/Pack/Flurry/Armstrong model, they are saying "you must follow me in all things unless I am a heretic" (this is where we see huge abuses of Government), whereas Monson limits this by saying "follow me only where you see me following Christ". The later being a much healthier model. It seems Armstrong taught various things at various times--Ron Dart (or perhaps Fred Coulter) talks about a "early Armstrong" and "Middle Armstrong" and a "Latter Armstrong", all being slightly different in their emphasis.
I've listened to a few messages from COGA. Some were better than others. It is unfortunate that SM contracted Covid, but I'm not surprised. This disease and/or variations of it are not going away. Vaccinations won't completely eradicate the illness. How many variants are out there already? Early on I had heard that their were at least 8 strains of Covid. Their are supposedly a few hundred variations of the flu. Will Covid be like the flu and require yearly vaccinations? Pharmaceutical companies are making plenty of money with this whole mess.
This particular splinter group exists solely on the strength of its main doctrine - the doctrine that you don't need to wear a mask, or to socially distance.
There were two main reasons that people jumped into this group, on the strength of this 'doctrine' - either:-
1. The group leaders assertion that God will protect you from Covid, so there is therefore no need for masks, or social distancing, or any other such precautions, or:-
2. People that did not believe that Covid existed anyway, that it was all a hoax. Again it followed that there is therefore no need for masks, or social distancing, or any other such precautions.
Both these beliefs rapidly lose credibility if people in the group itself start getting Covid, even more so if one of the victims is the leader of the group, who formed the group based on these ideas.
I also get the sense that the NT congregations were largely self governed, with local leadership, but you also had traveling people like Paul and others who would check in from time to time and provide guidance and instruction.
The "top down" model with one guy at the top seemed to develop over a period of time, as far as I have read. Letters credited to Ignatius of Antioch seem to promote this idea, in the early second century. He is believed to have said, "Wherever the bishop shall appear, let the multitude also be, just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic (universal) church. It is not lawful either to baptize or celebrate a love feast without the bishop, but whatever he approves of that is also pleasing to God."
According to Wikipedia, "Ignatius is the earliest known Christian writer to emphasize loyalty to a single bishop in each city (or diocese) who is assisted by both presbyters (priests) and deacons. Earlier writings only mention either bishops or presbyters."
Another quote ascribed to him was, "Take care to do all things in harmony with God, with the bishop presiding in the place of God, and with the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles, and with the deacons, who are most dear to me, entrusted with the business of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father from the beginning and is at last made manifest."
The above quote alone should be enough to cast doubt on the Biblical accuracy of his ideas, since no one is to preside "in the place of God." The development of the Catholic hierarchy with the pope at the top, and a hierarchy of bishops, priests, etc. can ultimately be traced from these ideas, and they use the writings of Ignatius to bolster the credibility of their version of hierarchy.
Many of the COGs have adopted a very similar form of hierarchy, based on this model, calling it "God's government" and while most of them aren't quite bold enough to quote Ignatius, they instead try to justify and bluff their way into its acceptance and stamp of God's approval through the emphasis of some verses, while ignoring others that don't fit into their narrative.
Every time one of these guys proclaims himself the new ruler of the roost though, he displays his own hypocrisy. He justifies his separation from, and failure to follow the established "godly" form of government of his previous church group on the assertion that we ought to obey God rather than men, but then turns around and proclaims himself the new man everyone else is supposed to line up under, without question or challenge, because that would be going against "God's government."
Concerned Sister
Dave Pack spent feast sermons mocking the covid cautious splinter meeting right next to him. He said he'd like to go next door and cough on them or some such BS. After his feast Dave got a good dose of Covid that took him out for 9 weeks. Served him right and a number of staff and feast attendees did as well. Karma is a bitch.
The religion that became Christianity was founded on the writings of one of the most individualistic, narcissistic, self-confident proclaimer of an alternative gospel and a rebellious ideology, the self-appointed "apostle" Paul. II Corinthians 11:5 "I do not think I am in the least inferior to those super-apostles."
Blazing a new trail away from the apostles of Jesus, Paul, through the force of his considerable will, stood his ground and gathered enough momentum to redirect The Way to suit his gentile converts.
The gospel of Jesus was a gospel of an imminent Kingdom for the Jews, the gospel of Paul was a gospel of faith in Jesus for eternal life - completely different, although apologists will try hopelessly to harmonize the two.
So the founder was a rebel, a rebel who had initially rejected Jesus because Jesus had been a rebel. Great role models!
That none went to Big Bwana Bob Thiels group has left me in shock.
Whatever is Bob doing wrong?
And who cares,lol.
5:50 PM yes, and booster vaccinations every year too. A robust variant could come out of India. The more humans contact Covid 19 the more variants develop.
'Every time one of these guys proclaims himself the new ruler of the roost though, he displays his own hypocrisy.'
Never a truer word said Concerned Sister. Perhaps one should ponder those thoughts.
'Anyway I don't care' famous last words always uttered in complete arrogance from these type of guys. I wouldn't want to be married to one of them, it must be hell.
Monson is now a super spreader.
SM would likely have contracted COVID much sooner if he had fallen for the mask scam. CDC & NIH documents show that wearing a mask increases your chance of contracting not only COVID, but other viruses, along with bacterial infections.
All:
Why oh Why do some COG people think that Basic Biology doesn't apply??
When did it become a sin to be careful about illness and Sanitation ???
Finally be careful running around with this misconception:
"God won't allow me to be sick"
Anon May 5, at 6:14 AM says: "CDC & NIH documents show that wearing a mask increases your chance of contracting not only COVID, but other viruses, along with bacterial infections."
(Citation needed.)
Get the tinfoil to block the 5G. Make sure your whole head is covered
Delusional uneducated idiot! That is what this person it. I have come to find that the more someone believes in conspiracies and crap like wearing a mask increases the risk, the less the I.Q someone has.
So many have made their pseudoscientific health misinformation conspiracies their gods instead of sticking to what God says. Instead of caring for their brothers they puff out their chests in their arrogance and pride, strut around and spew put-downs and pronouncements on other brethren who just happen to have a different manner in which to take care of themselves. Laodicean maybe?, they have need of nothing. It is each person's decision not a religious pronouncement. Besides, the CDC and NIH did not proclaim such idiotic statements that masks cause Covid or other viruses. Nonsense along with 5G and fairy dust. Hatred is alive in the churches. It's time to squash it already!
for Retired Prof:
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article
" In pooled analysis, we found no significant reduction in influenza transmission with the use of face masks (RR 0.78, 95% CI 0.51–1.20; I2 = 30%, p = 0.25) (Figure 2). "
https://www.technocracy.news/masks-are-neither-effective-nor-safe-a-summary-of-the-science/
40+ footnotes for your enjoyment.
At Annon 5:54 AM. The statement was show proof that wearing masks increase risk. This shows no reduction to influenza. Thus skirting the fact there is no CDC documentation about increased risk. Again justifying the means by adding to. Sounds like certain COG groups.
Just wear one or not wear one but forbear with one another then and take the beam out of your own eye before harassing someone else for their choice, agree to disagree but stop the division over this. This is nothing compared to what is to come, get a grip!
Okay, masks very well may not protect against INFLUENZA viruses as someone had said above"
"In pooled analysis, we found no significant reduction in INFLUENZA transmission with the use of face masks"
But,REGULAR Influenza, as stated in the article above, is mainly spread, yes through sneezing and coughing but strongly mostly from infected surfaces, as door handles, tables, etc as the droplets fall and even turn dry and we touch them, touching our faces and eyes. Remember that Covid is different in it's transmission in that there is much less evidence that surfaces spread Covid 18, although it is good to disinfect in establishments. Covid is caught much more easily, according to the CDC, through sneezing, coughing and close contact and inhaling droplets in the air even when they have dried and are still airborne. It is more important for a person to protect another person from Covid to wear the mask than a person wearing a mask to protect themselves. So think of others. One may also be asymptomatic with it and it is a matter of consideration to others. Not all viruses are transmitted the same way, in the same degree. Ebola is a virus but is transmitted through touch, if it became airborne we would likely be wiped out in Biblical proportions. Masks would not save us. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/how-covid-spreads.html
influenza virus is a corona virus
Covid 19 and flu influenza virus are different. Covid 19 is a Sars virus and flu is a separate influenza virus. Both are respiratory virus which gives the strong impression they are exactly the same. That is the con of Covid 19. But in fact is not.
That is why they call it the Novel corona virus because it is a c0rona virus that is something they have never dealt with or seen before.
I find the reading to be fascinating. It seems that the news media in general is holding back information that could be helpful. I suppose it runs contrary to the established narrative and therefore is not permitted.
MERS and SARS are corona viruses, as is the flu virus.
Why or why are you all so dumb. Flu virus Is NOT a Corona virus!!! https://www.cdc.gov/flu/symptoms/flu-vs-covid19.htm
This is for Concerned Sister above. Be careful when you quote from Ignatius' letters to the church. He was the bishop of the church at Antioch and a pillar of the truth who WILLINGLY gave himself to be mauled by lions in Rome. Are you ready to let yourself be eaten by hungry lions? Then don't get thrown off by his wisdom. There is nothing wrong with saying an ordained elder presides in the place of God. It accords with the writings of Paul who called himself a co-worker with God (1 Cor 3) and a house manager (1 Cor 4). Paul also wrote that he - not God - planted his churches (1 Cor 3:7) and that he - not God - begot Onesimus (Philemon) so one can find controversy and offences anywhere if he isn't aware of the traps. Look at Ex 7:1 where the Lord says about Moses, "I have made you as a god to Pharaoh". What do you think about that? Would you say that no one should preside as a god in the place of God? Go back and read what the Lord said to the Jewish leaders when he quoted, "Ye are gods".
What you should be concerned about in the writings of Ignatius are the few spurious verses that were added by the Sunday worshippers who wanted to discourage Sabbath keeping, while using the authority of the bishop (overseer) to legitimize their false doctrines.
No the flu virus is NOT from SARS virus.
look at the flu virus, it is a corona virus:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_A_virus
It is a tragic fact that many professing Christians were imprisoned, tortured, and killed by Roman officials in the first and second centuries, and this wasn't just limited to "bishops" or others who were considered leaders in the movement.
However, the insinuation that someone's writings or ascribed writings shouldn't be scrutinized in light of accepted scripture is bunk, regardless of how they met their own death. And while it is tragic that Ignatius and others were martyred for their profession of Jesus Christ,it doesn't necessarily follow that all of their beliefs or ideas should be taken as gospel, or placed on the same plane as scripture itself, especially if those ideas contradict what is found within the scriptures, as is the case with some of the ideas ascribed to Ignatius, within the letters credited to him.
Justifying Ignatius's ideas concerning the rule of bishops, while simply dismissing as "spurious" other writings that are not agreeable, could also be viewed as problematic. People have been arguing over these letters for many years, with some, particularly those of the Catholic faith, lining up in his defense, and accepting his writings as almost semi-canonical, and others rejecting almost anything attributed to him as either outright fraudulent or heavily interpolated, and thus not to be trusted.
As far as the argument that "there is nothing wrong with saying an ordained elder presides in the place of God" I completely disagree. It is the job of those entrusted with the care of God's flock to point people to Him, not to "preside" in His place, and this sort of language is both dangerous and borders on blasphemous, when carried out to it's logical end. It implies that a human being can in essence take God's place, and exercise decisive control or authority over those who are to be viewed as brethren, which is expressly forbidden by Jesus Christ Himself. Matthew 20:25-27; Mark 10:42-44
In principle this idea also violates the first commandment, "You shall have no other gods before Me." One could also argue that this sort of language smacks of a similar thought found in 2Thessalonians 2:4,"...he will sit in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God." We often view this verse as speaking of the physical temple, which would be the most intuitive meaning, but we could also apply the same principle to God's spiritual temple, which is composed of his saints. 1Corinthians 3:16-17
While Paul did refer to himself, Apollos, and others as "God's fellow workers" this was in the context of scolding the Corinthian congregation for dividing themselves into factions based on their preferred human leader. "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos." He also pointed out to them that he and Apollos were simply servants, and that it was God who gave the increase. They of themselves were nothing. 1Corintians 3:3-8 The entire point of the passage was not to elevate himself, but to point the people to God, and repudiate their flag waving division.
As far as the passage in Exodus 7:1 goes, God spoke directly to Moses, authorizing him to perform miracles, and speak, using Aaron as his spokesman on God's behalf. Considering the Egyptian custom of viewing Pharaoh as a deity, God was in essence telling Moses, "I will cause Pharaoh to view you as a deity, i.e. god." Moses, however, was limited to speaking only the words God gave him to speak, "You are to speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his land." Exodus 7:2 Moses did not "preside in the place of God", but instead acted as God's spokesperson, and though it was Moses who was used as the instrument, it was God who performed the "signs and wonders." Exodus 7:3
Concerned Sister
Wrong, Concerned Sister, they do preside in God's place, not as a replacement for God but as reps for God. Don't be confused over words. Satan is killing us (the church) over words. Three times in Heb 13 Paul makes reference to those "which have the rule (lead or hegemony) over you" (V7,17,24). However that authority comes from God, for all authority comes from Him. This fact should make the elders tremble and not puff them up with more self-confident smugness. Why? Because they must give account to the Lord for how they have treated their sheep (and guests, too, which is why Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed). At that time, they won't be able to weasel around or play the fox because there will be plenty of witnesses, including their friends and family members, to testify against them (Zech 13:3)
And by the way, it isn't "tragic", as you put it, that so many died by martyrdom -- it was expected. You don't know that the Lord said, "They shall kill you"? (Mt 24:9) When you choose Christianity, you don't choose it for the ice cream. As one preacher said, "There is no crown without a cross".
You see, sister? God is writing a story in which he makes Moses Himself and Aaron like His Son. Now if the Lord gives Moses such an honour to stand in His place, preside in His place, why, by your line of reasoning, are you putting the sin on the Lord for "causing Pharaoh to view Moses as a god" (your words)? By your reckoning, wouldn't that be contrary to the first commandment then? What? It's not OK to say an elder presides in God's place but it's OK that the Lord led Pharaoh into idolatry of a man who He put in His place?
Even the Lord said, "If you have done it unto them, you have done it unto ME, and unto My Father". How? Because one presides in the place of another.
Take heed, sister, and remember what Paul said about women, for these are fearful times in which we live, but the faithful will survive. Don't get into arguments over words (1 Tim 6:4).
Look aside from status of COGA, the masks being worn are bullshit and do nothing to prevent any type of viral transmission. Minimum would be a N99 that might be somewhat effective, but the cloth coverings are frankly stupid. IMO, people wearing them need a little self-psychoanalysis.
And, aside from religious considerations; my family has elected not to get these mRNA experimental genetic therapeutics. That's our choice, and we'll live with the consequences. Makes no sense to take a jab that has not even been approved by the FDA in attempt to prevent catching a virus (at least the current COVID19) that kills less than .5% of those that contract it. FACT--95% of those that die have other health issues.
So-----I don't give a hang what Weston dictates. Masks are offensive to me, and if I walk into a store without one, and am confronted by a masked hypersensitive zeolot-they can expect to be met with a ripost. If they choose to escalate--it's their ass.
Annonymous, angry much? you are acting like a "unmasked hypersensitive zealot", your words not mine. Look in the mirror and stop being so judgmental and live your life and leave others to live theirs.
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