A Brief Meditation on the Transcendence of God
In the early Nineties, a fellow member of the Worldwide Church of God (WCG) told me that there were people he encountered at the recent Feast of Tabernacles who were alarmed at a new booklet titled “God is …” They felt the booklet foreshadowed disaster. I had read the booklet and felt like the controversy was a tempest in a teapot. But maybe this was a small sign of the times. A year or so later, I checked out some tapes from the little library maintained by the local WCG congregation about the Doctrine of God. The tapes were of a series of WCG Bible Studies given in Pasadena by Kyriacos Stavrinides. I heard the tapes in early 1994 and they were revolutionary. Stavrinides described the God as understood in the Christian movement, to my great wonderment, and that God was much different from the God of the WCG. It seemed it was not a tempest in a teapot. I thought it was going to be a watershed. But that issue was eclipsed by many other issues and I do not know of any discussion of the Doctrine of God happening thereafter among the followers of Herbert W. Armstrong. Recalling this led me to this brief meditation.
It is natural for man to seek to understand God by use of analogies. We compare God to a created being because we are created beings and that is what we understand. This works well, within limits, because we are in the image of God to some degree. But it is an error to believe that God is just like us only more powerful. Here is a vignette of issues. God is not alive. Nor is he dead. Humans can be alive or dead. God cannot be either. He is existence itself. He transcends the categories of life and death. God is not limited by neurology. He does not hear or see or smell or taste or feel. Those are properties of the created human body. He experiences things at a level that transcends our senses. God does not have a body or internal parts. If he had a beating heart that sustained his life, who would have made it for him – some superior God? God is not dependent on anything – including internal parts. Even in the Christian movement, God is spoken of as omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient as if these words described transcendence. Yet these are just human characteristics with Omni- added as a prefix to expand the scope of these words. God is not just omnipresent – which means present everywhere. God is not a “where” being. He is not restricted by the concept of location. God is also not restricted by time. He is not a “when” being as we are. God is not just omnipotent. The human idea of being powerful involves something being stronger than something else. The word contains an implicit idea of comparison. God owns everything absolutely and does not need power to stake his claim. God is not just omniscient. He does not just know everything about every field of study. He creates knowledge. He transcends knowing. God is timeless, location-less, limit-less. This must be stated apophatically because we do not have the words. All our words are rooted in humanness with its limitations. It is a grave error to believe that the anthropomorphisms of an ancient Semitic tribal people, their particular analogies, tell us what God is in his essence. They also thought that the sky was like a blue ceiling. God gave us the ability not to understand his transcendence fully but to acknowledge it.
So if you do not acknowledge God’s transcendence where does it take you? Popular atheists like Dennett, Dawkins, and Hitchens argue from the perspective that God is like a demiurge from Gnosticism. Non-transcendent but immanent demiurges do not create but fabricate using already existing materials and forces. They do not create Ex Nihilo. You never hear atheists arguing about how “being” originates. They always start their debate with being, dimensions, stable forces, and objects presumed. Atheists ignore the highway and just futz around in the weeds on the shoulder because that is all the farther science will take them.
Or you end up making the mistake that Herman Hoeh and Rod Meredith made. They believed that the Ten Commandments were God’s eternal spiritual law. And so these Commandments and the statutes, laws, and judgments in the Mosaic legislation that expanded and refined the Ten Commandments just had to be in the New Covenant. But why would the law of God from eternity, that reflected the nature of God himself, speak of adultery? (God is sibi ipse ex, a law unto himself.) What would that mean back before there were human beings and sex? Humans and sex are not eternal – they were both created. When this issue is raised you often get the answer that the law concerning adultery is really about loyalty or integrity or some other fundamental ethic. This just proves that the law concerning adultery is really based on something more fundamental. It is painfully obvious that The Ten Commandments are an instantiation of God’s eternal spiritual law specifically tailored for humanity. They are not that law itself. And God can put into effect or turn off instantiations as he sees fit. God may have put into effect a collection of laws that govern the angelic realm that we cannot imagine. All instantiations (Abrahamic, Mosaic, New Covenant, Angelic) are derived from his eternal spiritual law that pre-existed the Cosmos.
Considering what is at stake, God’s transcendence is well worth thinking about.
Submitted by Neo
67 comments:
If one ponders "God" and his attributes, to any depth at all, one inevitably arrives at "panentheism". For some time now, I have believed that God created us, and everything around us using Himself as the raw materials.
‘All instantiations Abrahamic, Mosaic, New Covenant, Angelic, are derived from His Eternal spiritual Law that pre existed the cosmos’.
‘God gave us the ability not to understand His transcendence fully but to acknowledge it’.
Agree.
It is rear indeed to read a piece such as this on this blog, let alone to see it in any CoG publication.
God cannot be put in a ‘box’.
This understanding is why 10? Budhist Monks were present at HWA's funeral.
Nck
The thing I remember about Stavrinides 10 part series on "The Nature of God" is when someone would ask a question. Seems like he had one of two responses. "That is a question that is not a question," or "That is a question that has already been answered." Sort of like lil' Davey Pack...don't bother asking questions, as you will not get an answer!
What about God's interests. What motivates God. From God's interactions with humans bible readers can see God is interested in human character. The different characters God encountered along the way. Their reactions, hearts and minds.
Anonymous Anonymous said...
The thing I remember about Stavrinides 10 part series on "The Nature of God" is when someone would ask a question. Seems like he had one of two responses. "That is a question that is not a question," or "That is a question that has already been answered." Sort of like lil' Davey Pack...don't bother asking questions, as you will not get an answer!
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Interesting you should have noticed that too. I was there and recall the audience breaking out in peels of laughter when someone asked a specific question about the nature of God and then said, "And please try to use the word 'yes' or 'no' in the answer"
Of course, "yes" and "no" are not words one can easily ascribe to questions about the gods, and so often it seems we just are forced to make up descriptions of God using all the concepts humans are not and ideas our minds cannot grasp to begin with. How one can know all this about God escapes me.
I will always see the problem as a God, with all these traits, deferring to middlemen and never actually engaging itself to man personally to remove all doubt. After all, something so important as living forever or never again and being burned up for one's trouble and doubt is pretty big stuff. Resorting to "He that comes to me, MUST BELIEVE THAT HE IS...." seems a desperate demand when it would be so easy to just show up. It would certainly be in our best interest especially since this God is said to have said. "I am not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to the knowledge of the truth"
And don't just send a God son to spend a year or three depending on which Gospel you read thousands of years ago now because "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins".
If there is a God with all this transcendence, it needs to prove it personally because we are just persons and can't be blamed for doubting, or disbelief. Being amazing and spectacular means nothing if never presented as real to humans. And pushing it all off into the future as a "you'll soon see" and "It won't be long now", is just another kicking of cans down roads and also never happens or will it seems. We cannot successfully live our lives in the present, which is all that is actually real, always anticipating what we think is just around the bend or that others assure us is "yet a little while". It never is and we have thousands of years behind us to prove it.
Some have said that God transcends both time and space. In physics and abiding by the laws of the current universe, that would mean it does not exist.
IMHO
we've always been taught that the 10 commandments are God's law reduced down for human existence and will exist only as long as there are humans.....that God's LAW is much larger and we'll understand it only after we're changed.
Dennis (4:05)
While your statement does not directly call for a reponse, I would like to respond to it. But I must reach into my own theology to do this. I am an evangelical universalist. I believe that God puts everyone, in this life or the next, through the necessary experiences to receive salvation through Jesus.
I do not believe in universalism as it is commonly understood - that everyone, no matter what their spiritual condition, will receive salvation. I believe universal salvation comes by by grace through faith for everyone. This means that there is not a hell of eternal damnation. I believe that idea is contingent on mistranslation and a man named Augustine. To be precise, the older Augustine. He became an infernalist (believer in a hell of damnation) when he was older and in some kind of state of darkness of mind. And later Calvin beat the drum for him. But Augustine has influenced the entirety of Western Christianity - even how the King James translators did their work. The Eastern branch of the Christian Church is not so much influenced by Augustine. (For an exhaustive presentation of univesalism see "The Evangelical Universalist" by Gregory MacDonald, a pseudonym for Robin A. Parry)
I am influenced in my thinking by Gregory of Nyssa rather than Augustine. Nyssa was a universalist who believed that the Biblical and philosphical evidence support the understanding of universal salvation at the hands of a benevolent God. And I believe that the Biblical terminology, when properly translated, refers to a hell of purgation or rehabilitation.
We live in a time of "already but not yet." Jesus secured salvation for humanity. He triumphed over Thrones, Principalities and Powers - a major theme in the writings of Paul. But over 2,000 years have passed and the Kingdom of God has not appeared as a global reforming government. Instead we see the ministry of the Holy Spirit at work and with only some people becoming Christians for the present. I have an opinion about why that is.
This view addresses many of the issues you raise and I cannot go into detail. I see your view as a recoiling from the harsh and brutal view of classical infernalist Augustinianism. And I believe that is a natural response for anyone who spends some time thinking about the issues. I have also come to realize that unless evangelical universalism is true Christianity is not an internally coherent belief system.
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NEO,
YES! I am happy to endorse your "meditation" on God's transcendence. Many years ago now, after leaving the Worldwide Church of God and finally confronting my own sexual orientation, I came to the realization that my own conception of God (Herbie's too) was very naïve and limited. I also came to understand that the musings of the men and women who authored Scripture, and all of the religionists who had followed them, were limited and inherently skewed by their humanity (which is NOT to say that those musings are without value or inspiration). Seven years ago, I was even inspired to create a blog titled "God cannot be contained." And I meant that literally, NOT by any of us, and certainly NOT by any book which some of us have composed about God! Moreover, it is only after we come to this awareness and acknowledge it that we begin to truly comprehend just how great God actually is - that the "mind" of God encompasses EVERYTHING that we are and are aware of and MORE!
Dennis,
You demand proof, but you have rejected the only kinds of proof which are available to us as humans - and that's OK! I do NOT believe that the God whom NEO and I are talking about will condemn someone for needing more - or requiring "proof" that can be more tangibly experienced by a human. Even so, taking everything which we (humans) have collectively experienced in this realm into account, I am forced to conclude that even a voice from heaven or a physical manifestation of the entity known as God would not be enough to persuade some folks. Moreover, as it appears that we have been designed to ponder/think/question/explore/decide/make choices for purposes which have NOT been fully/wholly? revealed to our minds, it seems counterintuitive to me that the God who created our reality/context would suddenly decide to sweep all of that aside and share its reality with us. You cannot imagine a God who transcends the laws of our universe, but there are a great many reputable physicists/cosmologists who have put forward the thesis that there are other universes governed by different laws. If they're right, what does that mean for the universe which comprises our own present reality? Getting back to NEO's post. Can our minds really comprehend things like eternity, infinity and the absence of the things which constrain us?
As always NEO very good & very deep and hard to wrap my brain around but I blame acog & covid for that last part (I can tell covid stole some IQ :( ).
+
One of my thoughts is that God & his son are not limited by human standards because they are outside this universe and thus not limited by its's laws.
I shall add this to my way of thinking list that I'm trying to make of what's real & what is just what I was force fed.
Sadly I only know the wwcg god since it's what I grew up in, I'm trying to unlearn what I was taught where concrete "truths" but due to health I have to live with a former acoger that while Mom has abandoned some of Armstrongism's thought control she has held on to a lot of both it's and her baptist ways of thinking which prevents any exploration like y'all have obviously done or use of the "blue" words (she is 80 so the words on her list of cussing is longer than mine & I agree that God's name should not be taken in vain I differ on her thinking about cussing on all the other words but mom's way IS LAW... so I do the best I can lol)
I hope y'all have a good week Stephen :)
As for the question of God's Law, NEO is correct to focus on the principle(s) which underpin the components of the laws which are part of the terms of both the Old and New Covenants. There is a reason why Christ noted that Moses had personally made a concession for the Israelites regarding divorce, but that God had intended something else when "he" designed human marriage. That the physical statutes are subject to change is further reinforced by Christ's, John's and Paul's focus on LOVE as the principle which underpinned the whole thing. And, as has been noted here and elsewhere numerous times, if Christ did indeed fulfill the law, doesn't that suggest that every provision of that law which had pointed to his fulfillment of it would necessarily have to be changed/modified going forward? Finally, is it reasonable to suppose that God wouldn't modify or change statutes that had been rendered antiquated by the expansion of human understanding/knowledge of itself and its environment? (e.g. the impact of the development of fertilizers, pesticides, antibiotics and genetics on farming and the need for the land to "rest" every seventh year). Hence, NEO's point is demonstrated in spades that: while the principles which underpin the Law may be eternal, changing circumstances dictate that the physical statutes which comprise it will change over time.
Dr. Stavrinides prefaced his teaching on this statement: "you cannot fully understand God because you cannot fully understand Greek."
A show of hands on who fully understands Koine Greek? So if fully understanding Koine Greek leads to a full understanding of God, we were all doomed to failure right, or were we not?
Right after the Dr. Stavrinidis' messages ended, I had an aspiring ladder climber who is now a Grace Communion minister, come running up to me exuberant - do you now see God, do you see him. It's fantastical he said - the head would be the Father and the torso would be Jesus and the arms and legs are the Holy Spirit - do you see it Chuck, can you see it?
Jesus Christ said he came to reveal the Father and he said if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. Well, for almost 2000 years nobody has physically seen him and what are the results of that?
Everyone has just created their own God and their own Jesus in their own eyes. And in parallel with that, they have created their own gospel. I was just handed a newly published book written by a married family relative. A staunch believer in the "triune" God, he stated in this book that the believer should develop a relationship with and worship and pray to any of the over 75 names of God. So if in the morning you have a need to pray to the jealous God you should do that. And in the afternoon if you need the God of armies, you should pray to him. A far cry from Jesus Christ's words that you should pray as such; our Father in heaven ......... and whatever you ask in my name it will so be.
The christian religion is not a religion of "blind" faith. Either you have been moved by a strong calling or experienced one or many incredible miracles or you haven't. If the God that can execute such things is viewed solely through the lens of ceremony and rite and ritual and or passiveness, then a person will create the wrong God. Not wanting to "hear" God and in the "confidence" of silence you create a golden calf, you will once again be looking at another god.
At the end of the day, the world was not waiting for a Greek "expert" to come along in 1994, nor was it waiting for the publication of a defining book. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is after all the God of the living and not the God of the dead.
So, God is ........... what?
Thanks for your input and response NEO and Miller. A never ending story for sure.
NEO Meditated on transcendence of God, "He does not hear or see or smell or taste or feel.
MY COMMENT - I surmise then from this statement that God does not hear our prayers, nor does he answer them. Yes, or No? (sorry Dennis - we live in a binary word of zeros and ones). Any perception of answered prayer is considered merely coincidence I guess.
NEO meditated, "God is not a “where” being"
MY COMMENT - What about Divine intervention? I remember about 15 years ago Dixon Cartwright ran a series in The Journal - news of the Churches of God about experiences and encounters with angelic miracles. I submitted my own experience and Dixon published it. My question is, Did God send the Angels? Yes, or No? (Again, my apologies to Dennis) If yes, how did God know where to send them? Or, is this just like answered pray and merely coincident or what we experienced didn't really happen?
NEO meditated, "The tapes were of a series of WCG Bible Studies given in Pasadena by Kyriacos Stavrinides."
MY COMMENT - Since you indicated this occurred in 1994, this greatly post dates my exit from WCG as I left in 1976. I am not familiar with the name. My question is since you indicated it was a Bible Study, what Bible scriptures did Stavrinides cite in his Bible Study, if any? I surmise from your meditation as a conclusion the reader can draw is that the Bible is irrelevant, and is not inspired word of God. Yes, or No? (How many times do I have to apologize to Dennis, LOL?)
Richard
Gary must be tired. I was totally surprised to see the subject of this post. Then, I went back and relooked, and as suspected, there at the end, in small letters, NeoThermology post. Surprise gone.
I hope he isn’t turning into a relationship Neophyteist! That kind of Neothermology says one can make up and believe anything one wants for there is no “recognized authority.” Ergo, bible done away with.
Wow, what a session one could make with this subject and all its faults, errors and deceptions.
Who wants to start first to expose this teacing from the NeoTherm cult? Can you imagine starting a NeoThermology college? Just think, Herman Hoeh must be rolling over in his grave about now.
Please, let the diatribe begin before Banned becomes Joined to individual confusion on steroids. No, wait, maybe it will turn into the Neo Neosophy and take over the world.
So when God walked in the garden of Eden he was not 'walking' but floating about neither walking in any direction ?
When God called out to Adam and Eve, whilst in the Garden of Eden, that was a voice from nowhere/nothing an essence?
When Jesus Christ told his disciples that he would not drink of the wine until the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in the Kingdom of God. He was lying? As he allegedly cannot taste, feel or drink?
Richard:
First Issue:
Yes, God hears prayers. God has absolute realtime awareness of all that exists in reality. This does not mean that he has a physiologic auditory mechanism like man has. He created the human five senses. God himself is not bound by human sense mechanisms.
Second Issue:
Yes, God can send angels wherever he wants. Again, God has absolute realtime awareness and control over everything in reality. But he does not have to travel from place to place. He does not live at a location in the universe such as "the sides of the north." He does not ride around on a cherubim. All of that is poetic or symbolic language that communicates certain images to us. The idea that God is everywhere is inadequate. Everywhere is bound to our universe. He transcends being everywhere.
Third Issue:
Yes, the Bible is the inspired word of God. But it contains metaphors, similies, anthropomorphisms and other figures of speech because God has to talk to us in our language. Also, the Bible has undergone a long period of curation by human beings and has been edited to some degree by its curators. But it still accomplishes the purpose that God intends for it.
I don't have the tapes of Stavrinides Bible Study so I can't cite you his scriptures. But what he presented was the standard Doctrine of God found in most Christian systematic theologies. And this understanding has been around for centuries. Stavrinides was not saying anything new. It is only new to Armstrongists because HWA did not rationally parse figures of speech in what he taught. You can turn to the section on the Doctrine of God in a denominational systematic theology and read pretty much what Stavrinides said with the supporting scriptures. Millard Erickson wrote a good one titled "Christian Theology." Part 3 in this book is a section title "What God is Like."
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What about the truth wrote, "Dr. Stavrinides prefaced his teaching on this statement: "you cannot fully understand God because you cannot fully understand Greek.""
This is hyperbole. I am surprised Stavrinides would say this. If you know Greek you may be able to understand a little more than readers with English only. Nobody can "fully understand God". We will never be able to fully understand God. We may aspire to an efficient working knowledge and that is just about all. The finite mind cannot understand the infinite God.
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12:06 ~ You mocked. But having said that, I suspect that you only gave us your surface level reaction. With what, specifically, do you take umbrage in NEO's post? Would it be edifying to discuss your points? That is often the way in which education takes place, don't you agree?
So, in the spirit of Mrs. Runcorn, what do you have to offer?
NEO said: What about the truth wrote, "Dr. Stavrinides prefaced his teaching on this statement: "you cannot fully understand God because you cannot fully understand Greek."
"This is hyperbole." "I am surprised Stavrinides would say this."
NEO, should we then think that Dr. Stavrinidis' conclusion was as well, nothing but hyperbole?
That conclusion by the way completely swayed 50,000 people to embrace "another" God. And you are here today to let them all know that they have not in the past and to this day, understood "that" God.
NEO, I am getting more worried for you by the day. I know you embrace the greatest commandment, but just what in the hell are you loving with your whole heart, soul and mind?
I will as well turn that question around and ask this: if "the finite mind cannot understand the infinite God" as you say, how do the 2.6 million global Christian adherents love with their whole heart, soul and mind - that which cannot be understood?
NEO, there is a fine line when trying to propagate the transcendence of God. If it comes to a point when God is unknowable, non-understandable, un-relateable, un-seeable, un-touchable, un-heard, non-habitable, un-nameable, non-describable and non-comprehensible, then the true God has been pushed away too far. And if that is the case, then at the end of the day, another god has been introduced. And the last thing those in the COGs need - IS ANOTHER GOD!
Anonymous 12:46
God appears in a number of different forms in the OT. These are called Theophanies (a physical appearance of God to a human being). In fact, the author of Colossians explains that God is invisible. So whenever he appears to human eyes, we can be sure it is a theophany.
Jesus is fully man and fully God. So he can eat and drink. He has a permanent body that looks human and it is not a theophany. Jesus acquired this in the incarnation. This bodily state was not a part of his original essence. We will have a bodily resurrection and will be able to eat and drink as well. Since Jesus was able to pass through walls with his body and ascend into the heavens, it is not the same kind of phyiscal body that we have now.
I am not saying that God is inferior to us because he cannot taste, feel and drink. I am saying he transcends us in that he knows without having to have a physical body to acquire this data. He knows very well what orange juice tastes like. He created oranges and created us to be consumers of oranges. He knows the deal and he does not have to eat to stay alive. That is a concept he introduced in his creation.
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NEO, One of the major ongoing events of the intertestamental period, covered in part by some of the deuterocanonical works (aka Apocrypha), was the process of hellenization, which in fact led to the books of the New Testament even being written in Greek in the first place. Did Dr. Stavrinides cover the ways in which hellenization might have influenced his concept of God? His comment regarding having an understanding of Koine Greek might be taken to imply such influence.
Laws for angels that we cannot imagine? Yes, there's presumably rules such as not manifesting themselves to humans without God's express permission, but different laws is ridiculous. Neo needs to read up on metaphysics.
First we had the now basically retired Dennis the spiritual menace trying to convince us that God doesn't exist, and that the bible is a fraud, and now we have Neo muddying the spiritual waters by intellectualizing away anything and every thing.
Dennis and Neo are the dynamic duo, protecting Gotham city from sound Christianity. To the Atheist Cave guys.
Why is the "written by Neo" at the bottom of the article in fine print?
Anonymous said...
Gary must be tired. I was totally surprised to see the subject of this post. Then, I went back and relooked, and as suspected, there at the end, in small letters, NeoThermology post. Surprise gone
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Oh..thanks for this! Thought this was NO2 too at first. I did think, "this doesn't sound like the Gary I know" and I know Gary pretty well.
The Jews at the time of the second temple were a hot mess. Herod the Great was not a Jew by birth, he was Idumean. There were all manner of little sects, like the Pharissees, Saducees, Hellenized Jews (read the Maccabees), and the Essenes. Zealots were plentiful, and there were many or these who were thought of as possibly being the Messiah. No doubt, the early Jewish Christians would have to have come from any number of these little sects, and the Hellenized Jews would most likely have been influenced by the plethora of mystery religions which had entered into Alexander's empire through his conquests.
Somehow, early Christianity must have accommodated and united all of these backgrounds under a more expansive school of thought, a greater concept so to speak. Perhaps this greater concept is as Dr. Stavrinides outlined.
Wine doesn't cheer both God and man - Judges 9:13? God doesn't hear - Ps 3:4? God doesn't see - Ps 14:2? God doesn't smell - Lev 26:31? Neo's transcendence appears ..... you choose the word.
Anonymous 6:19
The verses you cite characterize God in human terms. This is anthropomorphic language. It communicates well with us by using analogy. But think for a moment. God created the Cosmos. He created all the laws of physics and chemistry. He created light. And he created retinas so that they would respond to photons in order to produce images. Is God himself subject to those things that he creates? Was he blind before he created [hotons and eyesight? Then did he have to create a pair of eyeballs and an optic nerve for himself? God was transcendant from the beginning. Is he subject to the speed of light today? When he looks at earth from the distant realm of the Third Heaven must he wait for photons to make their speed of light trip to his throne so he can see what is happening down here? Perhaps, billions of light years?
As for wine cheering the heart. Jotham is telling a story. It is a parable about political events. It does not even touch theology. He is not establishing doctrine. He uses the locution "God and Man" twice. My guess that was a kind of turn of phrase. God does not have a fleshly stomach with a lining that absorbs alcohol. That is a human condition. John tell us that God is spirit.
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Man,what an interesting thread! I'm speaking as an outsider here, with no stake one way or another whether the Abrahamic god is transcendent or not--or in fact, whether he (or some other spiritual entity who identifies as almighty) even exists at all or not. By default, that leaves me as a materialist, but I'm not fanatical about it. I have no faith that the material universe is all that exists--it's just that I see no point in trying to interact with anything beyond it, so I do not take it into account in my day-to-day life.
But whatever may lie out there beyond sure is fun to speculate about. I appreciate the speculations you all are contributing here.
A lot of people assume we materialists discount gods because we want the freedom to indulge in debauchery and to lie, cheat, and steal at will. Not me. I spent too many hours as an impressionable youth with my butt plunked down in one christian pew or another (or in a COG folding chair) for that. I may reject the virgin birth and the resurrection and other supernatural stuff, but I deeply absorbed an obligation to treat other people the way I would like to be treated. The late poet Miller Williams had a name for people like us: secular christians, with the small "c" to indicate its generic nature--not part of the Christian brand.
He said we have only two commandments:
1. Never take up more than one parking space.
2. Always be kind to drunks.
Behind the facetious facade, these commandments make actual sense, metaphorically speaking. First, don't arrogate to yourself more than your fair share of the earth's resources. Second, since everybody screws up sometimes, it's best to cut others a little slack when they do, in the hope they will cut a little slack for you.
I am mulling the different speculations you all have supplied about what a god might be like, and begin to see connections among certain passages in the book of Job, in Ecclesiastes, and in the Samuel Beckett play *Waiting for Godot*. I will let the ideas stew around in my head, and if anything interesting comes of it, report back later.
The notion that God needs eyes to see, ears to hear, taste buds to taste, a nose to smell and nerves to feel is ludicrous on its face! Next, they'll be telling us that because the male gender is used in Scripture that God has a penis and testicles (I guess it would have to be the grandest junk ever since it's God we're talking about)! If God needs eyes to see, then how do we explain I Samuel 16:7, Psalm 7:9, 19:14, 26:2, 139, Jeremiah 17:10, etc.? How does the Word of God discern the thoughts and intents of the heart? (Hebrews 4:12). Did the Holy Spirit actually speak (Acts 13:2)? Is that enough to demonstrate the point or do you need more?
I would venture to guess that NO2HWA doesn't agree with a good many of the comments which all of us make here from time to time (Dennis too). Fortunately, NO2HWA has been good enough to provide this forum for all of us to discuss the pros and cons of Armstrongism. And, since NEO's post has appeared here, I think that it's reasonable for all of us to conclude that NO2HWA posted it! We are all free to communicate our agreement or disagreement with what's posted here (as long as you're not vicious or potty-mouthed!), but let's try not to be too caddy, self-righteous or arrogant!
Anonymous 4:44
Good point. I heard the tapes in 1994 and never heard them again. So my recollection of details is dim. I just remember back then thinking that Stavrinides' view was so remarkable and then finding out that he was teaching the standard Christian Doctrine of God - an understanding that spans centuries, creeds and councils.
I do believe that the ancient Jews believed that God had a body. The concepts the Jews dealt in were similar to those of other Semitic peoples in the Middle East. And that analogical language was used by God in his communications with them. Just as God let the ancient Semitic model of the cosmos stand in Genesis 1. God did not teach them quantum mechanics nor did he teach them that he was really a Spirit. He used contextual terms. HWA was so immersed in the OT that he picked up this language and ported it along with lots of other baggage into the NT.
I have not had a chance to read about the putative development of Hellenistic influences in the NT but my guess is that those who see the NT through Judaic lenses likely attribute the the Hellenization of the NT to Paul. He was a Hellenic Jew. But I do not think he redefined the view of God unilaterally. I do believe he received his insight from his engagement with Jesus. (I actually believe the Bible.) And the theory of Paul as Hellenizer does not account for the fact that the Apostle John asserted that "God is Spirit" and it was Jesus who described the ethereal qualities of spirit as spirit would appear to humans.
The Greeks in general did believe their gods looked like and acted like humans. So I am not certain what thread in Greek viewpoint would be postulated as the source of a corrupting influence through Paul on NT doctrine by Judaic oriented critics.
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I was wound up when I wrote my comment. I obviously wasn't talking about a bin for our trinkets! Let's not be CATTY!
On relation to the 1:28 comment.
I remember in the nineties when some Stavridithings were introduced in our local area our elder explained the concepts by saying midway that although HWA did not speak Greek his understanding of the concept was right all along.
I guess it's like me driving a car very well, although never in my life I have opened a hood!
Nck
It is a mystery to me that because all the COG's have rejected the trinity, they all now assume that God is a binity, and that Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament. Having accepted that the Holy Spirit is not a person, and that is the only thing wrong with Trinity, yet all the discussions in the early church were concerned with the nature of Jesus Christ, as to whether He eternally existed or had some sort of beginning since the creation. A false interpretaion of John 1:1 (especially the meaning of Logos) has been used to show that both God and Christ existed from the beginning, whereas Matthew 1:20 and Luke 1:35 both show that Christ was "begotten" or "conceived" in the womb of Mary, both of these terms being defined as coming into existence from what did not exist previously. Hence the whole concept of the pre-existence of Christ should be called into question.
None of the COG's seem prepared to consider whether this concept of Unitarianisn is true, largely because of their past tradition that Christ has eternally existed, and that "One God" actually means "two Gods". They have also gone along with the idea that Christ is "God the Son" as well as the "Son of God", which is essentially a Trinitarian concept. The position of the so-called Biblical Unitarians, makes mush more sense to me. Surely the simplest solution to the whole problem of who is Jesus Christ, is that there was one God from the beginning and that this one God then had a Son, who was then the "Son of God" but not "God the Son". Sons do not exist before their fathers.
I suppose that because nearly all Biblical Unitarians also believe that the Law of Moses is not part of the New Covenant, and therefore not required today, that they cannot be right concerning the nature of Jesus Christ.
What about the truth (4:24)
You wrote, "should we then think that Dr. Stavrinidis' conclusion was as well, nothing but hyperbole?"
I recall Stavrinides presentation conforming to orthodox Christian beliefs so we cannot categorize what he said as "Dr. Stavrinides' conclusion." It is a common belief among millions of Christians. That 50K people chose another god, that is the god of HWA, is a tragedy. A vote of 50K people who have been intensively indoctrinated is hardly any kind of validation.
You wrote, :...but just what in the hell are you loving with your whole heart, soul and mind?"
You are missing the point completely. I am not saying there is no God. I am saying that the Armstrongist god is too small because he is based on humanistic figures of speech from the OT. For me to say that Armstrongists are missing the true glory of God is not asserting that God is nothing. This is where all the rubber meets the road - where your past Armstrongist indoctrination meets the truth. Please try to understand it clearly and not deal in presumption.
You wrote, "... if "the finite mind cannot understand the infinite God" as you say, how do the 2.6 million global Christian adherents love with their whole heart, soul and mind"
We understand and love God in finite terms. And that is enough for us. We can understand the concept of infinity without being ourselves being infinite or knowing infinity in its fullness. It should not be necessary to reduce God to a human-like being, as if he were a Greek god on Olympus, for us to be able to love him. To understand him in a larger sense is not to push him away.
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Miller Jones (9:06)
When I first started attending the services of the WCG last century, some WCG members told me at Sabbath services that God had genitals. They also stated that the idea of "out of my belly shall flow living waters" was analogized by urination. That is, God had a bladder and the other accoutrement necessary to execute the act of urination. I was incredulous at the time but did not think about it much more (to my great regeret). But now, in retrospect, if people are going to believe in an anthropomophic God, basing their understanding of God on figures of speech from the OT, why not believe that God is anatomically gendered? The Mormons believe that God has a wife and has sex with her and that is where we all came from. Why doesn't Armstrongism assert that as a belief? Nothing stands in the way.
You and I have had this discussion before - do people have to have a certain knowledge of God in order to be Christian and saved. I tend to believe there is some threshold where the understanding of God becomes so distorted that salvation on that basis is not possible. But I don't know where that threshold is. But in the discussion of this topic, we must be dancing around that borderline.
There is another aspect to this yet unexamined. HwA believed so strongly in God's embodied existence that he referred to God as being "of spirit composition." And when humans are resurrected they also would be "of spirit composition." His language made it sound like spirit was a kind of substance that could be used to form spirit objects. It is the idea that God is not a spirit but is "made out of" spirit. This is unique to Armstrongism as far as I know. This opens a range of questions, the first being "if God is composed of a spirit substance, who did the composing?" Did he compose himself? That is illogical.
What all this does is create God in the image of man. I don't think that HWA intentionally meant to humanize and de-glorify God. I just don't think he could see over the horizon.
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I do remember the Kyriacos Stavrinides tapes, and particularly his assertion to nearly every question that ‘I have already answered that’.
I believe that he was stating pretty much exactly the Greek Orthodox view of God, which I believe he was brought up in.
However this ’Meditation’ makes some very dogmatic statements, with no reason or proof offered. And statements that contradict Biblical statements. For example:-
‘God is not alive. Nor is he dead. Humans can be alive or dead. God cannot be either. He is existence itself. He transcends the categories of life and death.’ Is that so? Based on what? If we conclude that God is not dead, then in the English language it is entirely reasonable to say that God is alive, that He exists as a thinking, operating being, regardless of how we might understand what sort of being He is.
‘God does not have a body’. On what basis do you decide this? Again it certainly contradicts the scriptures. Obviously we are not talking about a physical body. Are you also suggesting that angels and other spiritual being don’t have spiritual bodies either? Is there any Biblical basis for this?
God ‘does not hear or see or smell or taste or feel.’ Again on what basis? Once more we are talking of a spiritual realm. Are you suggesting that God in heaven cannot see the spiritual creation that He has made, or hear the words of the spiritual angels?
There are several other points, but maybe you could clear up these three for a start!
I’m very glad Gary posted this misty yes, no, maybe, could be, assuming, I thought it up myself piece of non-sauce diatribe. Why? Because it perfectly illustrates how the wcg and ac were infiltrated by their enemies, loaded up with fake teachings, very interesting fake teachings, and then later attacking those false teachings as if they were the real wcg teachings. Plus, the infiltraitors pretended to be true believers and ministers who created bad conduct situations to blacken the ministry. Plus, this explains how so many quickly turned to atheists and other things. How else can so many at the same time claim to be atheists, etc.? Simple, they were already atheists pretending to be Neo’s Armstrongites. Read the verses describing this for the future of the ekklesia, and look at atheist handbook of the bible, and compare.
By the way, Neoites, the Greek text says when Messiah returns will He find “THE faith” not just “faith.” A totally different meaning.
Again, thanks for posting this very enlightening deceptive doctrine.
Neo wrote: (I actually believe the Bible.)
Sounds good, Neo??? Would you please explain what you mean by that? Your explanations seem to indicate this instead: I believe I can ignore, or change the meaning of what the Bible says by claiming parables, etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum.
And, where did you get this nonsense?: When I first started attending the services of the WCG last century, some WCG members told me at Sabbath services that God had genitals. They also stated that the idea of "out of my belly shall flow living waters" was analogized by urination. That is, God had a bladder and the other accoutrement necessary to execute the act of urination. I was incredulous at the time but did not think about it much more (to my great regeret). But now, in retrospect, if people are going to believe in an anthropomophic God, basing their understanding of God on figures of speech from the OT, why not believe that God is anatomically gendered? The Mormons believe that God has a wife and has sex with her and that is where we all came from. Why doesn't Armstrongism assert that as a belief? Nothing stands in the way.
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That sounds like the fake doctrines brought in by infilTRAITORS, so it could be attacked later. And, so many other things. Why are you always blatantly comparing the wcg, and hwa, etal, with lies? Lies that were not original teachings, or practices? What the Mormons believe has nothing to do with hwa, ac, wcg, rcg.
This is my conclusive, if not final, statement on this topic. I would like to echo the words of the Jewish sage Maimonides described in the Jerusalem Post article titled "Does God Have a Body?":
"... the most trenchant critic of anthropomorphism was Maimonides. He asserted that believers in divine corporeality were ... heretics, since their conception of God was entirely false – as it denied the omnipotence and unity of the Creator. All biblical and rabbinic passages that imply otherwise must therefore be understood as metaphors or visions in the prophet’s minds. Such imagery, he asserted, were pedagogically necessary to introduce complex concepts in familiar terms or because some concepts elude linguistic expression, thereby necessitating pictorial images to convey a sense of the teaching."
And Maimonides does not seem to have been an outlier. On the other hand, I do not believe that HWA fashsioned this belief about God in order to engender heresy or even to subvert rationality in a contrarian way. It is very difficult for the human mind to understand a being that is not like a physical being. All beings that we know are physical. It is easiest to grasp what God is like by imagining him to be like ourselves. In fact, in some way that has never been settled, we are in his image. The idea that this similarity in image pertains to physical format is a superficiality. Homo Erectus, or Pre-Adamic man if you will, would have then also been in the image of God based only on physical format. But there are non-physical ways that we are similar to God.
I do not blame HWA for making the wrong move on this concept. Others have done so. But there is a wealth of carefully reasoned understanding in the Christian movement that HWA could have referred to. He read the writings of Wesley. He could have expanded his reading to encompass this topic as well. The reason why I do not blame HWA for adopting his position is that I find it difficult to understand how God is timeless. I know God created time beause physicists have demonstrated that time is a part of the physical universe and is altered by gravity. Time is a created property. It is one of those things that atheistic materialists assume rather than try to posit some kind of evolution for. Some may say that timelessness is an abstract unproveable concept that comes out of Hellenistic views. But in fact photons are timeless and that view comes out of physics. Photons move at the speed of light and at that speed time comes to a full stop. Yet from our perspective photons appear to move over time. From the photon perspective they are fixed and timeless and it is our realm that moves. If you don't understand that, I don't blame you. I don't either. Itis easier just to say and imagine that photons move. Just like HWA did not recognize anthropomorphisms from the OT. The path of least resistance. But the photon is something physical that we all readily accept as a part of our environment that is known to physics to be timeless.
I do find it a paradox that when you claim that God is more glorious than ever imagined that among some people this causes a welter of vitriol. My unavoidable conclusion is that this reaction is political rather than reverent. It has to do with honoring a man above God.
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Questeruk 8:16
‘I have already answered that’.
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This opens a range of questions, the first being "if God is composed of a spirit substance, who did the composing?" Did he compose himself? That is illogical. wrote: This opens a range of questions, the first being "if God is composed of a spirit substance, who did the composing?" Did he compose himself? That is illogical.
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Sounds like the pseudo religious version of the atheist hoopla, if god created this or that, WHO created god?
Both are childish questions. Everyone knows that He is ETERNAL, no beginning or end, you know: I Was, I am, I will be.
May I explain, when I wrote Everyone knows, that obviously excludes atheists as they claim no god, but they have read or heard at sometime He is ever living.
Hmmm? Why does an atheist and a religious person ask the same question with subtle word differences? To escape the obvious.
In response to NEO 6:56 AM:
NEO, your statement: "To understand him in a larger sense is not to push him away." That is coming back to moderation NEO and that is good. Meditating on God's transcendence is good as well in the proper framework.
With that said, you have taken God with many of your comments to a incomprehensible unrelatable entity. God becomes an it, and if you read back in my first comment, the now Grace Communion minister's reaction to Dr. Stavranides conclusion of definining the triune God was to in my face, ask me twice, "do you see it". No true Christian can truly engage with such an entity let alone even approaching a stasis of reciprocal love.
NEO, you have the whole Dr. K.J. Stavrinides conclusion point mixed up. The "Greek expert" was sent to thoroughly construct the trinitarian God based upon expert lingual interpretation and congruently to thoroughly destroy HWA's God. The 50,000 people chose the new God - the trinitarian God who then was defined as the triune God and then proclaimed as being only truly understood completly in that organization above every other christian denomination. 35,000 people rejected that God and formed disorganized splinterdom.
My question to you NEO is: as a trinitarian believer, how do you define God as a three personages in one being when the same God is so large and infinite and non-understandable that no human words could remotely describe this God?
What About the Truth Wrote:"My question to you NEO is: as a trinitarian believer, how do you define God as a three personages in one being when the same God is so large and infinite and non-understandable that no human words could remotely describe this God?"
1. God can be understood enough for present purposes. Humanity will never understand God fully. The finite does not comprehend the infinite. But that does not preclude a working knowledge.
2. We know God is a trinity because that can be pieced together from scripture. If we did not have those scriptures, we would be in the dark about that topic.
I have never seen the 35K versus 50k statistics before. Pardon me for mixing them up. Here is a revision: "That 35K people chose another god, that is the god of HWA, is a tragedy." The god of the 35K resembles the demiurge of Gnosticism. He is immanent and not transcendent. This seems like a fatal error but I am not sure how God regards this. None of us really understands God beyond a certain upper boundary. And there may be also a lower boundary such that if your understanding falls below that, you cannot be considered a Christian. I don't know where those boundaries are. Not my job. What is telling is that if you ask any random Armstrongist, he/she will tell you that they do not believe in the God of Christianity - of course, they will not state it in that way but that is what they mean. I have tended to take them at their word.
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The big boildown of this issue is that HWA and his minions attempted yet again to be the all-knowing teachers through their effort to quantify God. All they accomplished was to put Him in a box, to limit and contain Him. God is so great and expansive that He is beyond human comprehension. The Jews recognized this early on as is evident throughout their literature.
From Herbert W Armstrong's Mystery of the Ages, page 46:
"What Is God's Appearance?
Now more detail on WHO and WHAT God is. God is Spirit (John 4:24, Revised Standard Version). Why is God not real to so many people? Because God and the Word were composed of SPIRIT, not matter, not flesh and blood, like humans. God is invisible to human eyes (Col. 1:15). He does not seem real. To seem real, the mind naturally wants to visualize a definite form and shape. But even though God is composed of spirit and not of visible matter, God nevertheless does have definite form and shape.
What is God's form and shape?
In Genesis 1:26, "God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." We know the form and shape of man. That is the image, likeness, form and shape of God. In various parts of the Bible, it is revealed that God has a face, eyes, a nose, mouth and ears. He has hair on his head. It is revealed God has arms and legs. And God has hands and fingers."
These are Herbie's own words from his magnum opus! In other words, NEO has correctly characterized Herbie's teachings on the subject of God. Herbie went on to say: "God has feet and toes and a body. God has a mind. Animals have brains, but no mind power like man's.
If you know what a man looks like, you know what is the form and shape of Goo, for he made man in his image, after his very likeness!" And: "So now we know God has the same form and shape as a man. We also know he is composed of spirit, not of matter as is man. Spirit is invisible to human eyes, unless manifested by some special process." (Mystery, page 47)
The problem with Herbert W Armstrong is that he was ignorant of so much of the history and evolution of Christian philosophy and theology. Moreover, his literalist/fundamentalist interpretation of Scripture was very flawed, and we all know what happens when you build your house on a foundation of sand! He gathered together a bunch of heresies from other sources (NOTHING he preached can truly be said to have originated with him) and included them in the hodgepodge that we now refer to as Armstrongism (and those who are still deceived refer to as "THE TRUTH").
Where is the proof for these statements? Here on this blog, The Painful Truth, Living Armstrongism, Ambassador Watch, God Cannot Be Contained, past issues of The Journal: News of the Churches of God, and many more sites that are easily accessible on the internet. These teachings (nature of God, history of the church, Anglo-Israelism, Sabbath, Holy Days, Law/Grace, etc.) have been thoroughly refuted and debunked many times, and the evidence is there for anyone with an ounce of intellectual and spiritual curiosity and even a modicum of objectivity to peruse.
Finally, where is the evidence that NEO is an atheist? Where is the evidence that he rejects the Bible? I have been following NEO's comments for years now, and I don't recall a single statement of his that would support such a view of the commentator! It may come as a shock to a couple of the anonymous commentators here, but a different perspective on the nature of God does NOT make someone an atheist! Likewise, the rejection of Scriptural inerrancy or a literalist interpretation of Scripture does not constitute a rejection of the Bible or its Divine inspiration! Unfortunately, we see that this black and white (binary) thinking makes folks see things that aren't really there (I think we call that hallucination)!
NeoTherm said...
Questeruk 8:16
‘I have already answered that’.
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Yes, so I clicked on your Disclaimer, and as a reminder, this is what it says:-
DISCLAIMER: All my views expressed on this blog or website are my own and do not represent the opinions of any entity whatsoever with which I have been, am now, or will be affiliated. All content belonging to me on this blog or website is opinion. The information expressed as fact in my opinions may or may not have been verified. It is the responsibility of the interested reader to provide his/her own final verification of the content I express. It is not my intention to malign anyone or any organization. I do not occupy any position of authority in any denomination. I am a Christian lay-member and recovering ex-cult member. My participation in this blog or website is not an affirmation of or agreement with any of the viewpoints contributed by others.
So it’s deja vu the Kyriacos Stavrinides answer is it then? Your disclaimer does say these are your opinions. This is the very reason I was asking the three questions – how did you form these opinions, or did you just dream them up? They certainly aren’t in the Bible.
Yet Miller Jones says regarding Neo ‘Where is the evidence that he rejects the Bible?’. Well that is the reason I asked my questions, to find out his evidence, only to be fobbed off with the Stavrinides retort.
Anonymous (9:08) wrote, "And, where did you get this nonsense?"
I got that nonsense (I agree with your terminology) from WCG members after Sabbath Services in a large Midwestern church back in the early Seventies. These were members in good standing and not infiltrators. They maintained good attendance as I recall. One man was considered a kind of up-and-coming leader and his presence was noticeable. They made a logical deduction from what they heard as the description of God from the WCG pulpit. I think their deduction has merit, at least in its logical clarity if not content.
Why I compare HWA's teaching with Mormon teaching is because they both assert that God has a body. But Mormons do not balk at believing that God is reproductively active. And based on how HWA characterized God, it is only logical that the Mormon idea could be adopted by HWA and his followers. HWA believed that God was racial and gendered. Why not go all the way to actual sex. I think you can understand that the comparison I made was not gratuitous.
Note: I know very little about Mormon theology. I am relying on the internet for information about Mormonism which can be a biased source. If I have tapped into distorted or untrue information inadvertently, my apologies to any Mormons who may read my material.
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Questeruk (5:36) wrote, "Well that is the reason I asked my questions, to find out his evidence, only to be fobbed off with the Stavrinides retort."
I meant what I said. Stavrinides words just happened to fit. Go back and read the material I wrote. It contains explanations.
Let me cite just a part of it:
The Apostle John says that "God is Spirit" (John 4:24)
Jesus creates two distinct categories: " What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6)
Jesus provides an analogy to describe how humans would perceive the ethereal quality of the Spirit category: "The wind blows where it chooses, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." (John 3:8)
Notice that I cited the Bible as a source of belief. While this provides the fundamental categorical distinction between spirit and flesh, it may be easily augmented with some rational thinking. I am not going to go back over it all again. Millions of Christians have been able to understand this for centuries.
And, yes, this is all my opinion. I may be wrong but I don't think so. So far nobody commenting here of the opposite view has offered any kind of a plausible counter-argument - just presumption and rote recitation of easily debunked Armstrongist ideas.
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3.24 AM
How can God be beyond comprehension if we are made in Gods physical and mental image. Psychology is the study of God's mind, and an enormous amount is known. We humans for instance, do not have complete knowledge of the human body or of astronomy, but much is understood.
All this God-is-beyond-comprehension talk is nonsense, especially since God has given humans ultra powerful, God plane minds.
Anonymous 4:55 wrote, "Yes, there's presumably rules such as not manifesting themselves to humans without God's express permission, but different laws is ridiculous."
You do not know anything about angelic life. You do not know how complex their culture or society is. You know nothing about their interpersonal relationships. All you know is a little rule that was preached from the pulpit in Armstrongist congregations. Everything is simple for an Armstrongist. Why sould angels need a law prohibiting adultery? Why would murder be prohibited among eternal and immortal beings. These laws would have no relevance.
Since any hypothetical angelic law would be based on God's eternal spiritual law, there would be simiarities to the Law of Christ for humans. It is reasonable to believe that they live according to laws that resemble human laws in some places and differ in others.
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Well then, 7:44, the obvious question is, why aren't you God right now.???
If I were to give you a one word response to your comment, it would be: Anthropomorphism. (You just exemplified it).
Anonymous November 1, 2021 at 7:44 PM,
Then how do you explain these scriptures?
“'My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts,' says the Lord. 'And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine. For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.'" Isaiah 55:8-9
"When they arrived, Samuel took one look at Eliab and thought, 'Surely this is the Lord’s anointed!' But the Lord said to Samuel, 'Don’t judge by his appearance or height, for I have rejected him. The Lord doesn’t see things the way you see them. People judge by outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.'” I Samuel 16:6-7 (And I wonder if God was using his eyes here?)
And, what do you think that the Apostle Paul meant when he told the Christians of Corinth: "Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete, and even the gift of prophecy reveals only part of the whole picture! But when the time of perfection comes, these partial things will become useless. When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things. Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely." I Corinthians 13:9-12
In light of these scriptures, do you think it's possible that we don't know as much about God as you think we do?
8.49 PM
No,I don't. We know just about all we need to know about God, though some technical issues, such as God's age or "origin" might never be known
Btw, the Isa 55:8-9 "..my ways are higher than your ways.." is referring to the ten commandments. There's nothing beyond comprehension here as you imply
This God-is-beyong-comprehension is part of the bully ploy of keeping their victims small so that they be be lorded over. How many times have I heard ministers say from the pulpit "puny man, man of clay." etc. This shrinking of people for the sake of power lust is cold blooded murder.
By contrast, God on many occasions did the opposite with His "be strong, be brave, and be courageous."
Hi Neo,
And thanks for the more reasonable reply!
I remember at the times of the ‘Stavrinides retort’ that I felt if there were so many questions that he seemed to think he had already answered, and people were still questioning, then maybe he should consider ‘have I really covered this very well?’.
One example I remember, he stated God had no body one week, and the week after he was apparently amazed that some people in the audience still hadn’t accepted that God had no body. ‘You don’t still believe that do you?’ he said. Rather a lack of awareness on his part unfortunately.
Anyway, back to my questions. Let’s just narrow it down a bit. Regarding God not having a body. Lets scale it down even further, and leave God Himself out of it, and just ask ‘Do Gods created spirit beings, angels, cherubim etc have bodies? Because, and correct me if I am wrong, I felt that was what you were suggesting.
You quoted:-
‘Jesus creates two distinct categories: " What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6)
Jesus provides an analogy to describe how humans would perceive the ethereal quality of the Spirit category: "The wind blows where it chooses, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." (John 3:8)’
Exactly, Jesus is explaining to Nicodemus the difference between being born physically, when you are a physical human being, and being born spiritually. Nicodemus would be fully aware that, unless they manifest themselves, spirit beings cannot be seen by physical humans. I could ask, what has that to do with do they have a body?
The Bible has literally hundreds of verses that show the angels do have bodies. Let’s just review one or two.
Moses and the mercy seat – this had two ‘covering cherubs’, which was supposed to be a physical representation of what actually exist in heaven. Do Cherubim have bodies? Or was God misleading Moses?
Elisha (2Kings 6v16,17) asking that his servant see the reality of what was happening.
Daniel – an angel claims that he was held up on his way to Daniel. Was he just lying – you would think a bodiless being would have no problems with being held up?
In the book of Revelation there are so many references to spirit beings with bodies – just one example:-
Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
This was an angelic being which John was seeing, hearing, and talking to.
If we do not allow spirit beings to have bodies, then God has been rather careless in allowing so many biblical references to angelic beings with bodies in the scriptures. Dozens of times these bodies are described, sometimes in some detail. Isn’t God being misleading if in reality none of this is true.
It seems to me that the reality is the spiritual world, the physical world is just a faint reflection of that reality.
Anyway Neo, I would be interested to hear your view if created beings in the spirit world have bodies. To me the scriptures overwhelmingly says yes to this. Maybe you have already answered this – but if you have, like Dr Stavrinides, this is not apparent to me, so maybe you could just confirm your view? (with reasons if possible!!).Thank you.
So, what you are saying, 5:02, is that you don't actively hunger and thirst for a deeper understanding of God. You know all you need to know, There is no longer any sense of mystery for you about God, or life, or your place in the creation. And, this is based on what? Your five senses, your intellect, and however many years you have been walking around on the planet?
All I can do is shake my head when exposed to people of your mindset. Incredible!
Neo is able to answer for himself, but several thoughts occurred to me in reading over Questeruk's 5:57 comment. What are we to do with the fact that God chose to appear to Moses as a burning bush? (Exodus 3) What are we to do with the fact that God chose to manifest himself to Elijah as a disembodied voice? (I Kings 19)
As for angels, Scripture tells us that angels can manifest themselves to humans in many different ways. Satan appeared to Adam and Eve as a walking, talking serpent! (Genesis 3) Angels appeared to Abraham, Lot and the folks of Sodom as men! (Genesis 18 and 19) The prophet Isaiah described some kind of spirit creature called seraphim (Isaiah 6), and Ezekiel described some creatures known as cherubim (1 and 10). Likewise, the book of Revelation in the New Testament describes a number of different spirit beings. Hence, we are left with the distinct impression that angels can an do assume a number of different shapes/bodies when dealing with humans.
Questeruk (5:57), wrote "Anyway Neo, I would be interested to hear your view if created beings in the spirit world have bodies"
First, there is a major difference between God having a body and one of his created beings having a body. In the former case, one is saying that God in his essential eternal (timeless) nature has a body. And one would follow up with a certain line of reasoning.
In the case of created beings, one would follow a different line of reasoning because one is not asserting that they have bodies as their eternal nature because they were created by God at some point in time. For this reason, they occupy a different category from God.
We do not know what classes of spirit beings God has created and what their properties are. We know that there is an angelic creation. But are Cherubim a type of angel or are they something else altogether? So trying to generalize about spirit beings is not reasonable. Some spirit beings may have some kind of body that God created for them out of something foreign to us, hence, are not purely spirit as God is. Humans are not purely spirit and not purely physical. This inquiry doesn't go far because it ranges into areas that we do not know about.
For angels, as Miller Jones points out, they can manifest themselves in different forms. These forms are physical or we would not be able to see them. We see only physical stuff. Photons have to hit our retinas. (I suppose an angel could appear in the mind only - like a hallucination.) God is invisible to human eyes and this is repeated several times in the NT. When an angel appears to a human being it is called an angelophany. It is understood that you are not seeing the invisible spirit that is the angel but a physical representation that the angel generates in spacetime. Which may mean that angels must be able to manipulate the physical creation to some degree.
I think what you may be getting at is the issue of whether created spirit beings are bounded when in their natural realm. Do they have locality? Are there here but not there? And I believe they do have boundaries of some sort. That is different from having a form. A form is something that exists visibly in 3-space.
Comparing created spirit beings like angels who are immortal but exist in time to God who is timeless is like comparing apples to oranges. It is a category error.
And something else. This is my personal analysis of Biblical data concerning created spirits. It has no means of verification.
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QuesterUK and Miller Jones = same person.
8.21 AM
Now you're hitting me with a straw man argument. As I said, psychology is the study of God's mind, and if you read up on the topic, there is ongoing research. But the majority is known, and the principle of diminishing returns has kicked in. It's similar to physics and chemistry. Technical issues and sub atomic matter is still being studied, but the majority is known.
Are you attack-guy Kevin?
Questeruk is probably highly insulted that he's been identified as me! Personally, I'm used to it - I've been accused of being just about everybody who posts here over the years!
Anyway, a few other questions came to mind about the form/shape of God and angels. What about the pillar of cloud and fire? Exodus 13:21-22, 14:19, 24, Numbers 12:5, 14:14, Deuteronomy 31:15 (and it appears that sometimes God was represented by the pillars and sometimes the "angel of the Lord") What about the clouds which represented the "glory of the Lord"? Exodus 16:10, 24:16, 17, 40:34-35, I Kings 8:11 and II Chronicles 5:14, 7:1-3 What about the disembodied voice that spoke to the Israelites from the fire? Deuteronomy 4:11-12 What about the disembodied voice that said "this is my beloved Son"? Matthew 3:17, 17:5, Mark 9:7 and Luke 9:35 What appeared above the mercy seat? (that couldn't have been a very big space on top of the Ark of the Covenant, between the two golden Cherubim).
Hey, now we are getting somewhere! And I think we are in agreement in some areas.
Miller Jones makes the point that angels can manifest themselves to humans in many different ways, which scripture confirms as self evident. And I tend to sort of agree with Neo that we have little information as to if there are differences between the different types of angels that are mentioned in the Bible.
My main point in this discussion isn’t how angels manifest themselves on earth, (after all they would have to do something if they want humans to be aware of their presence). It is more what they are like in their ‘natural’ abode, in the spiritual realm.
To me the scriptures show that they do indeed have a form when they are out of this earth’s environment – if you like when they are ‘home’, in God’s spiritual abode. This is shown in scripture, maybe particularly the book of Revelation.
When it comes to God himself, Miller makes the point that God chose to manifest himself to Elijah as a disembodied voice. True, but I have always considered that was to have a greater impact on Elijah – after spectacular signs, winds, and earthquakes, and fire, then God manifests himself. Just a quiet voice – that is going to underline things more to Elijah, than if he had the distraction of some visual thing as well.
God didn’t appear to Moses in the burning bush. But Moses was desperate for God to appear to him a bit later. In Exodus 33 Moses pleads with God to show him His glory.
God tells Moses that no man can see his face and live, but he allows Moses to see the back parts of him, after He had passed by. So what was this, was this God manifesting Himself in some form, or was this the actual form of God?
And of course God, like an angel, can manifest himself to humans should he want to. How about Jesus, after his resurrection? He appeared to His disciples many times, appearing as a man, but was able to switch his appearance on and off e.g. He suddenly appeared in a room where all the doors were closed, and in Acts chapter one He would appear to have risen up into the air, and out of sight into the clouds.
However you like to think of Christ we are talking about the God level here.
Neo has, in previous articles, made the point – If God had a body, who made the body? To me that is a bit like the little child’s question ‘Who made God?’
The answer seems obvious to me – who made God’s body – God did! Think about it for a moment. If you are a disembodied spiritual being, and you are designing heaven as a place to live, wouldn’t it be nice to actually get into your creation, maybe have legs to walk around it, arms and hands so you can manipulate things around. Maybe just sit there, and admire the creation you had done for a while, rather than just drift around. And when we are talking about a body, I am meaning the functional shape – I don’t imagine God needs a heart, lungs etc.
Following this through, if God did this for Himself, and could see the advantages of having a (spiritual) body, is this why members of the angelic creation where also created with spiritual bodies?
I won’t develop this much further, except to point out that this would mean that God is actually in a particular location, but through the power of the Holy Spirit (sorry Trinitarians!) He is aware of everything that is happening throughout his creation, both spiritual and physical.
This would be confirmed by Jesus Christ Himself, in John 20v17 talking to Mary, Jesus told her that He had not yet ascended to His Father. Jesus seemed to think that he needed to go to a particular place to ascend to the Father, even although God was clearly aware of exactly where Christ physically was at that moment.
My main point is that, maybe God did not originally have a body, but the scriptures to me indicate that He does have a body now.
Anonymous said...
QuesterUK and Miller Jones = same person.
Ahh - No! - Not even on the same continent
Questeruk,
Your point about the burning bush underscores the ambiguity of Scripture on many of these issues. In Genesis 3, Sinai is referred to as the "mountain of God." And yet, we read "There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a blazing fire from the middle of a bush." I alluded to God being represented by angels in my earlier comment (these references to angels representing God's presence is probably worth several posts of their own). But, in verse 4, we read: "God called to him from the middle of the bush, “Moses! Moses!” Moreover, Moses is instructed to "“Take off your sandals, for you are standing on holy ground. I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” (verses 5-6) And, the remainder of the chapter records a conversation between God and Moses! (verses 7-22) God or angel?
While the scriptural basis for God and angels having "bodies" seems to cut both ways (sometimes they appear to have form and shape). NEO's original point about God's omnipresence has not been successfully challenged by anyone here. Is God omnipresent? Is God confined to a specific place and shape at any given time?
Proverbs 15:3
The eyes of the LORD are in every place, Watching the evil and the good.
1 Kings 8:27
“But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You, how much less this house which I have built!
Jeremiah 23:24
“Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?” declares the LORD “Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?” declares the LORD.
Psalm 139:7-10
Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
If I take the wings of the dawn,
If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
Even there Your hand will lead me,
And Your right hand will lay hold of me.
Matthew 18:20
“For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”
If God really is the Creator, then God created space, time, gravity, etc. Moreover, as Creator, God would not be subject to any of these things - God exists outside of the things which constrain/govern the physical realm. And, if God fashioned a body for himself, are we saying that God created himself? If God is omnipresent, why would he want to confine himself to a specific time, shape and place? Moreover, if God does have the ability to manifest itself in any number of guises (as scripture seems to suggest), why would he need a body?
Same choice in designs though.
The Gods having bodies?
Sounds Greek to me!
Nck
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