Dave,
You mentioned in part 385 of your latest delusional theological foolishness that there are people that only want to hear what they want to hear and not what they need to hear. I am writing you for such a time as this when you need to hear what I am sure you don't wish to hear.
Dave, clearly you need help to break free of this theological delusion you suffer from and pass on to your ministry, middlemen and few members, who, no doubt, quietly and to themselves have figured this reality out as well. They do like the perks, I suspect, of associating with you, but this will prove only to be temporary. Eventually they will abandon you to your delusions and move on with their lives. They will have to. Should anyone think they are waiting in the wings to take over your church in time, there will be nothing left to take over except the bills.
First of all, you need to face the fact that your theological training has never reached even minimal standards. You studied the Bible, as did I, under "mere Bible readers". Herbert Armstrong was untrained and undisciplined in his theology as was Joseph Tkach Sr. and the vast majority of the faculty and ministry at Ambassador College. The results of that, in time, will always be splits, splinters and slivers, of which you are one, a sliver, in such an organization. You can justify your "little flock" status as being the true church all you want, but your lack of success in drawing people to RCG and your absolute talent for driving them away from it is the reason the flock will always be little and finally disappear.
Secondly, few if any care what you think has to happen and how it must be for your Christ to return. I used to hear how intelligent you were. Personally, I thought not so much, just clever. But you aren't even clever. You are probably sincerely delusional with religious content and suffering the narcissism that can so often go along with those who have the need to be top dog in their chosen field which usually comes at the expense of everyone whose backs they had to climb over to get there.
I have known you for over 50 years and it was always obvious you don't work with or for anyone. Others only work for you and your words are the final words on any topic. This how you got to be where you are today and the mess you are in. If you don't understand the mess you are in, I suspect you soon will. Those around you have to see it coming. Or at least I'd like to think they are still capable of independent thought and able to. In your close associates, independent thought has died, or more likely gone underground for now.
Someday, your mini-AC, that you have built at the incredible expense, hardship and burden placed on your followers will be sold off, perhaps as a drug rehab facility or snapped up by a mega-church that will make you roll over in your grave should that be possible.
Your talks and sermons are beyond painful to endure. I don't think I have ever, maybe once or twice in the past, but uniquely now, as you might say, heard such a confusing mess and misuse of scripture in my life as you wander around the Bible making it mean what it does not mean, could not mean and never did mean. You are so sadly mistaken in every last bit of it over these past years and will be so until the day you die.
Your ministry and members will look back and wonder "what was I thinking and why did I put up with all that for so long?" I promise you, they will. I make an effort to listen to them, but they all sound the same with just new excuses for why the previous one was wrong and how "We didn't understand, but now I do". That habit of blaming the group for not getting this or that but then taking the personal credit when YOU finally understand it all is obnoxious and disrespectful to your groupies. It is YOU who didn't get it right again and has NOTHING to do with THEM not doing so. YOU DAVE.... YOU.
Whenever you announce at the beginning of a talk, "this will be a short message", of course, it isn't. The need to dominate the flow and frequency of information in RCG is strong in this one... you. Following your reasoning and logic, which I KNOW you think is awesome and well above average, because of your amazing upbringing, is painful and part of your delusional thinking. There is nothing reasonable or logical about anything you think up with regards to just about anything at this point in your trainwreck of a church.
Finally, and so much more could be noted and said, I would encourage someone hold you accountable for your mistaken notions about your Christ's Second Coming and your wanderings through the scriptures to reveal your fine mind on all things theological. You said in chat 384 that people hear what they want to hear and not what they need to hear and so here I am for YOU.
While I have quoted this back to you time and time again over the past 20 years, I don't think a minister ever said something quite as eternally quotable as this. Thank you for the warning and it is time to remind you that all of this you have done and continue to do, minus anyone reminding you of it withing your ranks.
The above, at least shows you do understand your own tendencies and potential, which now has been realized, to deceive and drive yourself and others right over the proverbial cliff.
You often project on others what you dearly need to apply to yourself. I have heard you do it often though I am sure you are unaware of it. Perhaps you don't know what projection is. You did it so often in your Proof of God series, where Aron Ra called you out on it, that it is not difficult to see that you do it well. You, however, seem obvious to the fact that you note and accuse others of doing what you do and are going to do yourself.
In conclusion, if you are incapable of holding yourself accountable for your foolish, strange and weird ideas then one would hope someone in your inner circle would before it is really too late. You are almost there now.
If those on the inside won't then your followers, who know in their souls that every sermon you give these days is delusional poison, should. Why no one does, I can only suspect that the reason is the temporary perks or the idea that "maybe this time he got it right." You will never get it right so let's get that out of the way right now.
To the membership I would say, they have NOTHING to fear. No falling away from the True Church and no loss of your salvation awaits you. No Lake of Fire beckons, and they are not, as you recently called those who have left, snakes and serpents. They are simply observing what is so and bringing to your attention that which many if not most are now recognizing to be you delusions but seem afraid to actually bring to your attention.
Well, once again, I just have, wish they would and hope you will consider your ways before it is way too late. You are almost there.
I wish you no ill will Dave, but that you would wake up and humbly admit you are not only not on any right track but that you're on the wrong train to begin with. It's the only right thing left to do and if you don't see this now, you will look back and have to admit it would have been.
PS While I know this probably Tekels ur Pharsin, it seems necessary for such a time as this. Please stop giving those painfully delusional sermons and move on to the New Testament if you can and you are going to pretend to know what you are talking about as a Christian pastor.
It would look and start with something like this...
32 comments:
Jer 5:31 KJV The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof? Dave's people love to have it so and will wind up on his wavelength, empty shallow vapid, losing the holy spirit if they ever had it. He has become the grim reaper stealing souls.
Dennis, your open letter is thoughtful and kind, but I think we both know that Dave would never be able to accept its logical and straightforward presentation. He would much more likely respond to a plea to his self-interest.
So, here's what I would suggest for him. Dave needs to re-read his own booklet on "That Prophet". Especially, he needs to re-read what he wrote about the lack of peace that befalls a false prophet who gets "revved up" by the receiving of new truth. Surely he would be able to recognize himself in those descriptions.
Even apart from his own booklet, Dave could learn much by doing a Bible study on the peace of Christ. If Dave cannot see that he is lost in a quagmire of confusion, he really is a case for Bellevue or a similar mental hospital. There is no example in Scripture of God making a man "certain" of one falsehood after another. Dave seems to have a desire to feel special, but we can see that God doesn't make any man special by deceiving him again and again.
What WOULD make Dave someone special would be if he would heed his own words that you presented in your thoughtful open letter. Imagine the shock waves throughout the ACOGs if Dave Pack were to give a sermon in which he either admitted that he was testing the brethren against his 1998 clarion call, or admitted that he had fallen into the same traps that so many other men have fallen and would henceforward return to what he was teaching in 1998, before the demons got hold of him.
Either admission would change him in an instant from a target of ridicule to a figure worthy of great respect. He might even see RCG grow as people would then see him as the only ACOG leader to humble himself so greatly.
Anonymous said...
Dennis, your open letter is thoughtful and kind, but I think we both know that Dave would never be able to accept its logical and straightforward presentation. He would much more likely respond to a plea to his self-interest.
======================================
We do and when I write something like this, it is not actually thinking Dave will personally read or take it to heart. It is for all those who might be forced to recognize what's actually going on with him and the danger he poses to himself and others mentally, emotionally and spiritually. It for all the others I know will read it.
Dennis:
Well written letter and anyone in an Armstrongist denomination could benefit from it. This preacher is just like other Armstrongists only more so. I still marvel at the fact that 70 percent of Republicans have accepted the idea, pushed ineptly by the Very Stable Genius, that Joe Biden is not the legitimate POTUS. In a nation where secular movements can command this kind of pseudo-religious allegiance, it is not surprising that this Armstrongist message can prosper.
I think a poignant note that you hit was that this will all one day go away. And I think that those who make the Parousia the center of their lives and marginalize other Christians themes need to prepare for a world of regret later.
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This is edifying for others than Dave. He would actually need some sort of treatment or to receive healing before he could even understand it. In other words, he's not going to read it, see a light bulb go on, and think, "Wow! I'm supposed to be the physician. I'd better heal myself!"
I blame several factors for his state of mind. One is the times we live in. Everything surrounding us really looks end-times baddish at this time, yet it is so unlike what we were taught through the Armstrong prophecy mold. I can see where this would cause a serious melt down for a Neidermeyer type (Animal House). So, the times we are living in, and Dave's need to see his lifetime of fanatical sacrifice be validated by the fulfillment of HWA's teachings must be looming as quite intense. The typical model for a minister is calm leadership in time of crisis, reassuring his followers that all will be OK. I can't imagine that the RCG members would be other than perpetually on edge watching Dave go through his daily spasmodic reactions. It's worse than Bob Thiel's tics, and even Ron Weinland eventually peaked and dialed down his rhetoric. We will probably witness some other crises in ACOG groups. The times are scary even for "normal" people.
What is the meaning of "mene mene tekel upharsin" (Daniel 5) for Dave Pack??...
MONEY MOENY TICKLES MY PERSON!
Mr. Diehl, from my experience and perspective that was the most pertinent conclusion that could have been offered concerning the 30 year history of Dave Pack.
The first sermon that I heard given by Dave Pack was a message about just four Bible verses. When the sermon concluded some hour and a half later, I thought to my self, that was the best sermon I have ever heard.
Dave Pack made an observation in one of his other sermons of how he had observed all of "stars" in the WCG. Men he said, who had it all - great looks, wonderful voices, riveting oratory, pretty wives and handsome and pretty children. They all ascended like bright and shining stars, but according to him, they all fizzled out quickly and came crashing to earth in spectacular fashion.
When I first entered the RCG, I talked to a number of people who had been with Dave Pack in the various churches that he pastored through the years in the WCG. Many of these were just young children at the time, so they had a culminitve perspective of many many years of being in his presence. Across the board, they all said his growth and ability had ascended exponentially.
What was just witnessed in the FINAL message was a sad testament to someone who has lost all sound understanding and reasoning. That is very similar to being a simpleton, the title of Marc Cebrian's last commentary. It took just 7 years to get to this point, and it now comprises and sums up the conclusion of the Greatest Story.
The four verses that the 2012 version of Dave Pack covered in what I thought and many others as well, as the best sermon ever heard - this coming from the Dave Pack who at that time was constrained to operate within the parameters of Herbert Armstrong's 18 restored truths, are in 2 Pet. 1. They read: 2 Peter 1:5-8 KJV
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
When did it all go wrong Dave?
I have known Dave pack for so many years, going back to 1966 at SEP in Orr,Minnesota. And I was 12, and he was a counselor, and swim instructor, in every way larger than life. Later on as I became an adult he was a minister in the Union New Jersey church, then much later when he was transferred to his last post in the NYC church area. His persona was always grandiose and narcissistic, somebody should have smacked him down and humbled him when he was a little kid, but that probably wouldn't have worked either. Micromanagement, every last iota, he needed to share his wondrous knowledge. LOL. I came to avoid him, use a different entrance and exit. I had kids the same ages as his, and I would feel so sorry for them, I couldn't imagine having to grow up in that household! Not surprised they have no relationship with him. Now he is delusional and dangerous but not surprised it has come to this. He could be Baker Acted, and the churches assets put in conservatorship if anyone had the balls to do it. Folks would lose their paycheck, but possibly a class action suit instituted? Just make it stop already.
@ 8:50 AM...
If Dave has any ambitious true believers among his current band of yes men, they could use Ohio's involuntary commitment procedures to have Dave institutionalized. This would give RCG a double boost. On the one hand, the remaining RCG elders could paint Dave as a martyr being attacked by both Satan and the State of Ohio, and we know ACOG members thrive on a sense that the "right" church is a persecuted church, so this would probably draw more members to RCG. And, on the other hand, the yes men could run a far saner church without Dave. Everybody wins. Except that if Dave could ever win release, it would be fun watching him try to regain control of his church. Unless his mental illness cure also cured him of his Armstrongism, which would be even more remarkable to behold.
I believe even HWA came to see him as a problem; he ran the risk of being "Shanghaied" like what HWA had to do to Meredith - sent out of the way to Hawaii on full six-figure Evangelist salary! Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind getting Shanghaied to Hawaii on a $250k salary!
Meredith & Pack then go indie, promoting themselves to the level of their incompetence.
Didn't Pack say at one time that he didn't need to read the Bible because he knew it backwards/forwards and no one knew it better than him?
David Pack has much of what Mr. Armstrong taught along with some new stuff.
David Pack has much of what Mr. Armstrong taught along with some new stuff.
Jonestown Flavor-Aid has everything regular Flavor-Aid contains, along with some new stuff!
I was a victim of Pack's cleverness and deceit for ten years. I finally was able to clearly identify (slower than I should have) the falseness of Pack's and many other COG leaders. I have moved on in my Christian walk to the best of my ability. What makes no sense to me, is that while I have no disagreement with Marc Cebrian and others of like mind, I find it puzzling why they seem to have committed so much of their time and energy to grind an axe that really would be better ignored. We are all responsible for pursuing our own salvation. We cannot save anyone. Sorry, I believe that most of what goes on here is a negative and gets no one anywhere (unless revenge is some sort of positive accomplishment).
"David Pack has much of what Mr. Armstrong taught along with some new stuff."
LMAO! That is hilarious! There is not one single thing that Pack teaches anywhere that resembles what Herbert Armstrong taught.
There is not one single thing that Pack teaches anywhere that resembles what Herbert Armstrong taught.
HWA: "I am an Apostle. Send me your money!"
DCP: "I am an Apostle. Send me your money!"
He has also said that he doesn't use a Bible as it slows him down. God uses him as a conduit through which He streams. Davie boy, use your Bible! Reject the god that is steaming through you! You're on the wrong channel. You're picking up broadcasts by the prince of the power of the air.
Anonymous Monday, August 1, 2022 at 11:21:00 AM PDT,
Dennis delivered a thoughtful and articulate appeal for sanity - I hope and pray that some will heed his message (I agree that it will NOT have any impact on Dave). If you take the time to look through the comments here, you will see that these "negative" posts have helped a good many folks over the years. Moreover, if this blog had only helped ONE person, it would ALL have been worth the effort.
Now, while I would agree with you that our walk with God is a personal and individual exercise, I also believe that God expects his people to help and encourage each other along the way. You escaped Dave's cult - Thank God! But what are you doing to help those you have left behind? Are you suggesting that we don't have any responsibility or obligation to help our brothers and sisters in Christ?
Finally, the way that some folks use Paul's letter to the Philippians (2:12) is troubling. Salvation is through Jesus Christ - period! I believe that the NLT provides a better sense of this scripture's meaning: "Work hard to show the results of your salvation, obeying God with deep reverence and fear." Our salvation does NOT require ANY work on our part! Our good works demonstrate that Christ has saved us and imbued us with the Holy Spirit.
I haven't heard much about the horses at the Wadsworth Compound. Does anyone know how they're doing? Asking for a friend.
Pal, almost everything he teaches does like he even paraphrased every single book Mr. Armstrong wrote except the mystery of ages.
His horses are still there! DP won’t sell them! He just doesn’t want the members to have any pets. So many members actually put their pets down when he condemned any families that had pets. It still makes me sad when I think of the damage he has done and still doing. DP is a real piece of work.
11.21 AM
Grinding an ace? Christ taught "beware of the Pharisees because...." Warning people of traps and danger is very much an expression of love. That you find fault with posters exposing evil is disappointing. I suggest you examine your own character.
He just doesn’t want the members to have any pets. So many members actually put their pets down when he condemned any families that had pets
If this is true, it is proof positive that Dave is not just delusional; he's a monster. The therapeutic benefit of housepets is well documented. Caring for a pet teaches its owner many lessons about unconditional love and faithful service, and many pets (particularly dogs) teach lessons of loyalty, faithfulness, and unconditional love in return. If it were possible to prepare in this life for ruling in the Millennium, taking care of pets would be one of the best ways to prepare.
Maybe Marc can fill us in? Does Dave just hate pets because of the money members might spend on them? Or does he actually not understand the personal development and emotional sustenance that can come through pet care? The latter suggests a sociopath; the former may just indicate a tyrant.
DP is both, I remember his reasons were the money spent on them and that they spread disease. I’m not sure Marc had joined RCG yet but I may be wrong.
People who are toxic often live long lives, continuing to do bad things. One would think that their karma would eventually catch up with them, but in some cases it never does.
6.11 PM
Emotional sustenance? I remind you of HWAs often repeated "beware of the evil of self esteem." Herb and his minion ministers want their members mentally infantalized and shrunk in order to make them more controllable. It's part of the cool aid that they regularly give to their members. Anything that mentally builds members up and strengthens them is opposed by these churches. Biblically, it's cold blooded murder. I assume ministers comfort themselves with the thought that this is common in today's "worldly" Christianity as well. Does it work? Sort of. Esau did get his bowl of stew. So mentally crippled church members have to struggle with outside persecution, but ministers don't care because they worship the false god of playing church. Nice!
DP is correct. Pets can spread disease, especially if their owners don't take proper care of them.
However, you could say exactly the same about children. Is it still OK for parents in RCG to have children?
Dennis,
Well written and excellent letter! May I suggest you transmit your open letter the old fashion way? Print it out and mail it to Dave Pack by Certified Mail. Put a little sticky note on the letter that you have published this open letter on Banned By HWA.
Richard
NEO said, "I still marvel at the fact that 70 percent of Republicans have accepted the idea, pushed ineptly by the Very Stable Genius, that Joe Biden is not the legitimate POTUS. In a nation where secular movements can command this kind of pseudo-religious allegiance, it is not surprising that this Armstrongist message can prosper".
MY COMMENT - I see no difference in "pseudo religious allegiance" with the Democrat Communists who pushed the idea that President Trump was not the legitimate POTUS elected in 2016. And as we have learned from Special Counsel John Durham's investigation into the Trump Russian collusion hoax, the lying smear was concocted by the Clinton campaign. The big lie pushed by the Democrats was an insurrection to undermine and overturn the Trump Presidency. I suggest that you might represent that ""pseudo religious allegiance" yourself.
Richard
"Buhwhuabow" is so tiresome.
Anonymous Shakedown Artist at 11:21:00 AM said...“I was a victim of Pack's cleverness and deceit for ten years. I finally was able to clearly identify (slower than I should have) the falseness of Pack's and many other COG leaders. I have moved on in my Christian walk to the best of my ability. What makes no sense to me, is that while I have no disagreement with Marc Cebrian and others of like mind, I find it puzzling why they seem to have committed so much of their time and energy to grind an axe that really would be better ignored. We are all responsible for pursuing our own salvation. We cannot save anyone. Sorry, I believe that most of what goes on here is a negative and gets no one anywhere (unless revenge is some sort of positive accomplishment).”
Putting Valuable Knowledge And Experience To Good Use
People who have been in a cult like the RCG for many years, read a bunch of the cult's literature, listened to a bunch of the cult's sermons, and took detailed notes, are the ideal people to warn others about that particular cult and what is wrong with it. If they know how to make a good website about it, that is even better. Others can then more easily learn the important facts about the cult from that former member's valuable experience, rather than having to learn everything on their own the long, hard, expensive way.
Of course, Satan and the demons will always send deceived, lazy, anonymous, Shakedown Artists, who lack sense, like Anonymous at 11:21:00 AM, to try to discourage anyone from saying anything about the cult and to try to get them to go away quietly.
The Shakedown Artists are the ones who should go away quietly instead of always spending their lives trying to stop others from saying or doing anything.
Well, I wish that someone would meanly tickle Mr. Drumpf's overactive upharsin! Yesterday's primaries have indicated that the advance towards the Fourth Reich is alive and doing well! We from Armstrongism don't have the corner on despotic authoritarians. Sadly, they've gone mainstream.
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