Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
Interestingly enough, Marc states on the video that the membership just basically ignores Pack except for the HQ staff and attendees who like "Clockwork Orange" must endure the sermons, but then just internally ignore Pack anyway.
I find this a strange situation. Im guessing that the sociology of "belonging to something" and the tenuous friendships are a hold. He also mentions that there is a huge SNITCH culture in RCG , which is no surprise,as even WCG was that way too.
I observe: when someone begins calling themselves an apostle of Jesus Christ, as did HWA about 1976, and David C Pack in 2005, the wheels begins falling off their wagon. Their elevator no longer goes to the top. Their knives become dull. The WCG went haywire, fell apart; the RCG is in tatters with an insane leader; I don’t know much as to the present condition of Weinland’s group; he calls himself both a prophet and apostle. Do you notice: those COgs who do not have a leader or an authority calling themselves an apostle are still somewhat sane and coherent.
I thought an Apostle had to be someone who was with Jesus. Of course with the exception of Paul, one "born out of season." But he had personal instruction from Jesus Christ.
So, 9/27@ 2:32 pm PDT -- I think you may be on to something.
Interestingly, HWA called himself an Apostle long before 1976. In his co worker letter dated 29 March 1957 he does so (https://www.hwalibrary.com/cgi-bin/get/hwa.cgi?action=getcoworker&InfoID=1354711082&byYear=1957&page=&return=coworkers). This surprised me as I was under the impression that it gradually got worse, and maybe it did, but it started almost two decades before the 70's.
Yes, but more so. An apostle has had a direct commission from Jesus (i.e one sent) and has born witness to the resurrected Jesus. By implication, they have a first hand testimony to be able to bear witness of the messiah.the central message is Jesus, not an "Ezekiel warning" message or talking about a "strong hand from somewhere"...
Fascinating! Another ACOG we often critique here actually joins in the fray, while someone whom I believe has a sock-puppet here also makes real time comments which pop up at the bottom of the screen throughout the interview.
My take-away from the webcast: Everybody in COGdom knows about Banned by HWA, and avidly reads here, just as everyone once read Ambassador Reports, and The Journal.
I also believe that Marc has become a very high profile free agent, and several of the splinters actively want him on their teams
The COG has had a long track record of never publicly questioning other COG groups. Dave Pack has went so far off the deep end that everyone sees this now and recognize something is deeply wrong.
Marc indicated in the interview that the one most attractive aspect of the RCG, to him, was that as compared to UCG, RCG offered a more defined structure for Christian living. UCG just seemed "too easy".
The idea that this specific structure was what caused God to favor those who adhered to it, and to trust them with the correct understanding of end time prophecy, was in fact one of the key teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong. It is the ingredient which allegedly made the old WCG "God's True Church". according to HWA, and separated the WCG from traditional mainstream Christianity. Once that seed has been planted, subtly and subliminally, or otherwise, it redefines a person's search for the correct church (with the added proviso that "all these churches can't be right).
I have been pointing out for many years now that this "construct" of HWA's, regarding obedience to the correct framework of laws from the era of the Levitical priesthood, though very convincing when one hears it for the first time, and it's reward, the correct understanding of prophecy, has not proven to be true. Not even close! Had it been true, we'd be about 47 years into the Millennium right now. Had it been correct, or God-ordained, it would have been enthusiastically validated by Jesus Christ, through His return in 1975! There would have been no excuses, or need for excuses, that is just the way it would have played out!
This structure, (and I happen to believe that a certain basic framework of structure is what actually facilitates freedom), did not prevent David C. Pack from going off the rails. "Mr." Pack, in fact, has always been anal retentive, or obsessive-compulsive about the law. If one had needed someone who would insist on the law, (as defined by HWA) and its intrinsic value, he'd be your guy! The Pharisee's Pharisee! No mistake about it! Yet here we are! HWA had his comeuppance in 1975, and Dave Pack is experiencing his in real time as we speak.
Keeping the teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong does not lead to accurate understanding of prophecy. If anyone happens to believe that it does, it is because they have worn their blinders, and have injected a prodigious amount of bullshit into the process, neither of which are effective in explaining the failures away!
Kudos to Mark on this interview. This is probably the best ones he has done that defines what is going on in RCG and is more relatable to those still in COG's.
Kudos to Banned for cooperating with Marc and others who have found this space as a place to have their voice heard even though we may all disagree theologically we can still say what is on our minds.
This blog listened to me over seven years ago when I voiced my concern about the church I was in and the issues we were having. I have been an avid follower ever since, even though I do disagree doctrinally with the blog owner and Dennis, but each has posted things that have been beneficial to so many.
Good interview. Peter Salemi from the BICOG interviewed Bill Watson from CGI about 5 years back and they both criticized all of the so called apostles in the church today. Dave Pack and Gerald Flurry were mentioned.
@ 34 min into podcast, the cessation of "The World to Come" television program was discussed, but it still leaves questions, why would the program cease when the church was now flush with Common funds? Especially since RGC's competitors all have a TV show and Pack keeps telling us that he's better than them!
HWA really started to fall off the rails when besides taking on the Apostle role, he added "Elijah" to the mix, again emphasizing both very much so in the late 70s after GTA was put out, in order to create a unique marketing distinction between him and GTA.
I believe DCP is a drunk, what else would drive him to say such LIES and nonsense?! A lot of people fall for these types of sects because they offer a club like feel of partying, dancing, drinking to their hearts content. Having no guilt whatsoever. Pride is all over RCG. All members enable the business of DCP! We either honor the Almighty in "SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH" or we don't. We cannot serve two masters! We cannot serve our Heavenly Father and mammon!
I've come to understand that DCP was never a converted member of the truth of God. I think God has brought him up to fulfill prophecy. DCP could very well be the Man of Sin!
Since he has never been a man of God, any baptisms or ordinations done by DCP or his fake ministry are illegitimate. God would never call a person into his church while it was in full apostacy. RCG was never a Church led by God and is really only a social club that is addicted to very dark prophesies preached by a Fake Minister, Fake Apostle in his personal revenge kingdom to kill anyone who left RCG or anyone that will stand up to his Demonic teachings.
Any baptized members of RCG that was baptized in WCG or another COG with God's spirit are who Satan is really after. If they are still attending RCG they probably don't have much of God's spirit left. They are the ones in grave spiritual condition if they don't repent. Satan has them right were he wants them. Any members of RCG that were baptized by DCP or his ministry have not been called yet and will have their chance to understand God's truth once they are resurrected. That's why they are still attending RCG and able to listen to DCP Dark, Satanic teaching and not understand the basic doctrines of God and leave. They don't really have God's spirit in them when they were baptized. They may like God's truth and God's people and the idea of it all, but if God is not calling them they really don't understand what's going on. I have spoken to a number of current RCG members recently and they are not listening to DCP teachings and are living in fear and it's causing real problems in their live. It's really sad. Some were baptized by RCG ministry so I understand they do not really have God's spirit and it's just not their time yet. Some were baptized in WCG and have God's spirit and it's really scary and sad, their light is going out or is already out.
Since God works in mysterious ways, the unconverted RCG members that had a fake baptism may help lead the great multitude in the Tribulation. If an RCG members really feels like they are being called now then they need to leave RCG and find a Church of God group that is being led by God and counsel to be baptized before time runs out.
God's people should fear sin, like recoiling from a cobra getting ready to strike. DCP reminds me of a really tall, big cobra spiting venom every time his speaks. How long can a person listen to him before listening to DCP sin strikes you down? Financing that sin with your tithes and offering make you guilty of that same sin and attending RCG services also makes you guilty of the same sin as DCP and his ministry.
The reason why most of the current RCG ministry that are still attending and do not stand up to help God's sheep are because their baptism was fake if the hands that were laid on them were not a man of God. God's spirit is not in them at all and never was. Some of the Ministers that have already left, had God's spirit. Some survived and some didn't. I would estimate that over ninety percent of RCG members are not converted at all. They may be some of the nicest people on earth, but not called at this time. Some of the current ministry did have legitimate baptisms and they should be very ashamed, they must have lost most of God's spirit already. God's warns about ministers that don't stand up to protect his sheep, it's your God given responsibility. God's says if you don't protect the sheep from death, then he will not protect you from death either. God's judgement is coming for you, he is given you time to repent and do the right thing. Time is running out!
Sadly most in RCG don't have the doctrines or ability to understand what is really going on because they are not called right now. God is merciful and in charge and knows who his sheep are. The members not called now that received fake baptisms will be resurrected or in the Great Multitude and be in God's Kingdom.
I think its important to remember that everything stated here would be something you wouldnt want to say to an employee unless you wanted that employee to own all your stuff by the end of that calendar year. Perspective is important.
9.15 pm No, non of the splinters want Marc on their teams. All the splinters are in love with their particular blend of truth and error, and they definitely don't want someone pointing out their errors. They would grind down and shred anyone like Marc. For his own self preservation, Marc needs to avoid all the ACOGs.
19 comments:
Interestingly enough, Marc states on the video that the membership just basically ignores Pack except for the HQ staff and attendees who like "Clockwork Orange" must endure the sermons, but then just internally ignore Pack anyway.
I find this a strange situation. Im guessing that the sociology of "belonging to something" and the tenuous friendships are a hold. He also mentions that there is a huge SNITCH culture in RCG , which is no surprise,as even WCG was that way too.
I observe: when someone begins calling themselves an apostle of Jesus Christ, as did HWA about 1976, and David C Pack in 2005, the wheels begins falling off their wagon. Their elevator no longer goes to the top. Their knives become dull. The WCG went haywire, fell apart; the RCG is in tatters with an insane leader; I don’t know much as to the present condition of Weinland’s group; he calls himself both a prophet and apostle. Do you notice: those COgs who do not have a leader or an authority calling themselves an apostle are still somewhat sane and coherent.
Thanks Marc, CGI for the video.
I thought an Apostle had to be someone who was with Jesus. Of course with the exception of Paul, one "born out of season." But he had personal instruction from Jesus Christ.
So, 9/27@ 2:32 pm PDT -- I think you may be on to something.
Interestingly, HWA called himself an Apostle long before 1976. In his co worker letter dated 29 March 1957 he does so (https://www.hwalibrary.com/cgi-bin/get/hwa.cgi?action=getcoworker&InfoID=1354711082&byYear=1957&page=&return=coworkers). This surprised me as I was under the impression that it gradually got worse, and maybe it did, but it started almost two decades before the 70's.
Yes, but more so. An apostle has had a direct commission from Jesus (i.e one sent) and has born witness to the resurrected Jesus. By implication, they have a first hand testimony to be able to bear witness of the messiah.the central message is Jesus, not an "Ezekiel warning" message or talking about a "strong hand from somewhere"...
Fascinating! Another ACOG we often critique here actually joins in the fray, while someone whom I believe has a sock-puppet here also makes real time comments which pop up at the bottom of the screen throughout the interview.
My take-away from the webcast: Everybody in COGdom knows about Banned by HWA, and avidly reads here, just as everyone once read Ambassador Reports, and The Journal.
I also believe that Marc has become a very high profile free agent, and several of the splinters actively want him on their teams
The COG has had a long track record of never publicly questioning other COG groups. Dave Pack has went so far off the deep end that everyone sees this now and recognize something is deeply wrong.
Marc indicated in the interview that the one most attractive aspect of the RCG, to him, was that as compared to UCG, RCG offered a more defined structure for Christian living. UCG just seemed "too easy".
The idea that this specific structure was what caused God to favor those who adhered to it, and to trust them with the correct understanding of end time prophecy, was in fact one of the key teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong. It is the ingredient which allegedly made the old WCG "God's True Church". according to HWA, and separated the WCG from traditional mainstream Christianity. Once that seed has been planted, subtly and subliminally, or otherwise, it redefines a person's search for the correct church (with the added proviso that "all these churches can't be right).
I have been pointing out for many years now that this "construct" of HWA's, regarding obedience to the correct framework of laws from the era of the Levitical priesthood, though very convincing when one hears it for the first time, and it's reward, the correct understanding of prophecy, has not proven to be true. Not even close! Had it been true, we'd be about 47 years into the Millennium right now. Had it been correct, or God-ordained, it would have been enthusiastically validated by Jesus Christ, through His return in 1975! There would have been no excuses, or need for excuses, that is just the way it would have played out!
This structure, (and I happen to believe that a certain basic framework of structure is what actually facilitates freedom), did not prevent David C. Pack from going off the rails. "Mr." Pack, in fact, has always been anal retentive, or obsessive-compulsive about the law. If one had needed someone who would insist on the law, (as defined by HWA) and its intrinsic value, he'd be your guy! The Pharisee's Pharisee! No mistake about it! Yet here we are! HWA had his comeuppance in 1975, and Dave Pack is experiencing his in real time as we speak.
Keeping the teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong does not lead to accurate understanding of prophecy. If anyone happens to believe that it does, it is because they have worn their blinders, and have injected a prodigious amount of bullshit into the process, neither of which are effective in explaining the failures away!
BB
Kudos to Mark on this interview. This is probably the best ones he has done that defines what is going on in RCG and is more relatable to those still in COG's.
Kudos to Banned for cooperating with Marc and others who have found this space as a place to have their voice heard even though we may all disagree theologically we can still say what is on our minds.
This blog listened to me over seven years ago when I voiced my concern about the church I was in and the issues we were having. I have been an avid follower ever since, even though I do disagree doctrinally with the blog owner and Dennis, but each has posted things that have been beneficial to so many.
Good interview. Peter Salemi from the BICOG interviewed Bill Watson from CGI about 5 years back and they both criticized all of the so called apostles in the church today. Dave Pack and Gerald Flurry were mentioned.
@ 34 min into podcast, the cessation of "The World to Come" television program was discussed, but it still leaves questions, why would the program cease when the church was now flush with Common funds? Especially since RGC's competitors all have a TV show and Pack keeps telling us that he's better than them!
HWA really started to fall off the rails when besides taking on the Apostle role, he added "Elijah" to the mix, again emphasizing both very much so in the late 70s after GTA was put out, in order to create a unique marketing distinction between him and GTA.
I believe DCP is a drunk, what else would drive him to say such LIES and nonsense?! A lot of people fall for these types of sects because they offer a club like feel of partying, dancing, drinking to their hearts content. Having no guilt whatsoever. Pride is all over RCG. All members enable the business of DCP! We either honor the Almighty in "SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH" or we don't. We cannot serve two masters! We cannot serve our Heavenly Father and mammon!
I've come to understand that DCP was never a converted member of the truth of God. I think God has brought him up to fulfill prophecy. DCP could very well be the Man of Sin!
Since he has never been a man of God, any baptisms or ordinations done by DCP or his fake ministry are illegitimate. God would never call a person into his church while it was in full apostacy. RCG was never a Church led by God and is really only a social club that is addicted to very dark prophesies preached by a Fake Minister, Fake Apostle in his personal revenge kingdom to kill anyone who left RCG or anyone that will stand up to his Demonic teachings.
Any baptized members of RCG that was baptized in WCG or another COG with God's spirit are who Satan is really after. If they are still attending RCG they probably don't have much of God's spirit left. They are the ones in grave spiritual condition if they don't repent. Satan has them right were he wants them. Any members of RCG that were baptized by DCP or his ministry have not been called yet and will have their chance to understand God's truth once they are resurrected. That's why they are still attending RCG and able to listen to DCP Dark, Satanic teaching and not understand the basic doctrines of God and leave. They don't really have God's spirit in them when they were baptized. They may like God's truth and God's people and the idea of it all, but if God is not calling them they really don't understand what's going on. I have spoken to a number of current RCG members recently and they are not listening to DCP teachings and are living in fear and it's causing real problems in their live. It's really sad. Some were baptized by RCG ministry so I understand they do not really have God's spirit and it's just not their time yet. Some were baptized in WCG and have God's spirit and it's really scary and sad, their light is going out or is already out.
Since God works in mysterious ways, the unconverted RCG members that had a fake baptism may help lead the great multitude in the Tribulation. If an RCG members really feels like they are being called now then they need to leave RCG and find a Church of God group that is being led by God and counsel to be baptized before time runs out.
God's people should fear sin, like recoiling from a cobra getting ready to strike. DCP reminds me of a really tall, big cobra spiting venom every time his speaks. How long can a person listen to him before listening to DCP sin strikes you down? Financing that sin with your tithes and offering make you guilty of that same sin and attending RCG services also makes you guilty of the same sin as DCP and his ministry.
The reason why most of the current RCG ministry that are still attending and do not stand up to help God's sheep are because their baptism was fake if the hands that were laid on them were not a man of God. God's spirit is not in them at all and never was. Some of the Ministers that have already left, had God's spirit. Some survived and some didn't. I would estimate that over ninety percent of RCG members are not converted at all. They may be some of the nicest people on earth, but not called at this time. Some of the current ministry did have legitimate baptisms and they should be very ashamed, they must have lost most of God's spirit already. God's warns about ministers that don't stand up to protect his sheep, it's your God given responsibility. God's says if you don't protect the sheep from death, then he will not protect you from death either. God's judgement is coming for you, he is given you time to repent and do the right thing. Time is running out!
Sadly most in RCG don't have the doctrines or ability to understand what is really going on because they are not called right now. God is merciful and in charge and knows who his sheep are. The members not called now that received fake baptisms will be resurrected or in the Great Multitude and be in God's Kingdom.
Just an observation: RE co-worker letter March 1957: HWA called himself God's apostle. Next year his first born son died after an automobile accident.
I was happy to see Byker Bob commenting again. His comments are almost always incisive and helpful.
I think its important to remember that everything stated here would be something you wouldnt want to say to an employee unless you wanted that employee to own all your stuff by the end of that calendar year. Perspective is important.
Good point, I never put the two incidents together before.
9.15 pm
No, non of the splinters want Marc on their teams. All the splinters are in love with their particular blend of truth and error, and they definitely don't want someone pointing out their errors. They would grind down and shred anyone like Marc.
For his own self preservation, Marc needs to avoid all the ACOGs.
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