Thursday, July 25, 2013

Dennis on Dave Pack: "Intuition Tells Me.......?"

"I don't share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds 
of those that think differently.  
I share my thoughts to show the people who think as I do 
they are not alone..."
Dennis Diehl - EzineArticles Expert AuthorThe "Apostle"  Joshua C. Pack fascinates me as you have probably figured out by now.  This whole Haggai episode is both fascinating and puzzling to me. Partly because I have known him since he was 20 and partly because he is summation of all that is wrong with ministry and what happens when one becomes what I have come to call being "God Haunted."  Dave is a sorry reminder, to me at least, of decisions in life I wish I had not made and gut feeing's I wish I had listened to along the way, but were afraid to .
I don't see Dave Pack taking the kind of chance that so far has been implied in the braggart like quality of "Soon to be Reunited."  Dave is not the kind of thinker that finds some obscure scriptures , makes them to be speaking of him, set a date for some dramatic thing to happen and walk away unscathed if it doesn't.  Dave does not risk making a fool out of himself in his own mind at least and everything has a perfect explanation as to why it had to be so..  There is too much to lose if wrong,  as hundreds have been before, in setting dates.  Dave is not a date setter in the traditional sense in that when September 1st comes along, everyone will be laughing and he loses it all wondering why God did not mean what he perceived him to be saying to him in Haggai. .  There is more to this, in my view, than yet meets the eye.  
Dave has always, in my experience, been the kind of thinker who is both clever and devious.  Clever does not last as long as genuine intelligence but it is more dangerous.   He does not take the same kind of chances that say a Ron Weinland did with setting date after date and making fool out of himself as have thousands before him.  Dave is a competitor and not winning is  never  an option. I don't believe for a minute this date of August 31, 2013 is an all or nothing and desperate attempt at doing the impossible and the implausible.  Something else, to me, seems to be afoot or at least the final episode will not be what you may be lead to believe.  Dave doesn't do all or nothing in the same way Ron Weinland did and failed.  . 
I, as others, have seen this in Dave's sportsmanship.  From stopping games he was losing to changing the rules so he could win points, Dave simply has to win at all he does.  We have the notorious story of Dave allowing an excellent teen basketball player stay on the team in spite of his long hair as long as needed to win.  Once the season was over and the victories gained, Dave, from all accounts, sent the kid packing if he didn't get his hair cut.  Dave is a rule bender if it serves him and yet is never acknowledged as such.  This also accounts for his puzzlement over what "filthy rags" he must be wearing as "Joshua the High Priest", because, like Rod Meredith, major sins (or minor probably) are simply not factors in his life as he sees himself.  Thus, he concludes the filthy rags must be the sins of the COG splinters that he must carry and the fact that he did not realize this soon enough.  Weird thinking to the average human but not to the God haunted. .  The fault for everything in his life lies with others and Satan has been trying to stop Dave before his immaculate conception no doubt. This is typical and unchanging David Pack.   
So what's going on here.  I can't picture the "I will win" or "one who undercuts others" Dave taking a Ron Weinland type risk.  I also don't picture many transferring their membership in the splinters over to the Restored Church literally.  I picture few if any ministers now willing to expose themselves to Dave's scrutiny with the 35 ways back to his good graces.  But I do picture a shift in Dave's mind on August 31st as to who really is the true Apostle over ALL the splinters and ministers, whether they know it or not.  Once that is established as a fact in his mind, he can work on members coming to him as well as ministers who make that leap down the road. 
In the past, and i say this based on my own experience in NY pastoring and what others have told me over the years, Dave has had a tendency to redraw church boundary lines to his advantage.  Ministers in neighboring churches would only learn that some of their members were being told to come to Dave's Church when the member got a letter or at least told that they now were in Dave's area.  This was news to the pastor.  Dave tended to add to his church by subtracting from the church areas of others.  He also tends to multiply by causing division.  In some way, this Haggai/Joshua/August 31st thing is some form of that, if only in Dave's mind.  I just don't think he would risk a Weinland or even thinks that way. Dave does not put all the eggs in one make or break basket.  He calculates which is why I have always kidded about it always being about the numbers when denied.  Dave is simply redrawing lines again and making Haggai mean what it never meant to see just how this can work in his mind.  It's highly possible all the splinters , members and ministers will end up, in Dave's mind, in Restored as predicted.  It will not be literally true, but it will be mentally true.  It will be yet another boundary adjustment, just on a grander scale. 
I will try to be discrete with this, but this same undercutting habit was used by Dave against someone who confided in me that Dave tried to take his customers and undermine his business.  Actually, it near destroyed the business. Sensitive topic but the person to whom this happened confided this to me and is credible.   It is just more of the same.  In business, Dave had to win no matter who it was he was undercutting and trying to ruin. Stealing customer or stealing church members = all the same thing. There are many former employees of RCG who will agree that Dave has great tendencies to undercut others, cause division between partners and "win."   If he wants something, the ends justify the means it seems. 
So, we'll see.  I could be totally off base with this sense of just what is going on. Maybe I should not even say this publicly, but as Dave is so very public with what will happen in his mind, I can be equally as public with what my intuition and gut feelings are telling me is possible.  I have challenged him THREE TIMES to debate me, but I am sure he is unsure he would "win" and so can dismiss me neither stooping to do so or daring to lose.  There is no losing so if you think you might, you don't play. 
Unlike Dave, I don't have to right all the time or win anything. But this setting of a date seemingly to get a specific thing to be or  to be risking everything,  (radio, TV, building ambitions, college, awesomeness)  is not typical of Dave Pack's thinking.  In his mind, whatever he means by "return" fits the fairytale he has told about Haggai and his being Joshua the High Priest in fulfillment.  If he literally thinks that, then I would say all bets are off and we are not seeing typical behavior and thinking as seen in the past, but a deterioration of thinking and a risk taking that is not typical at all.  Somehow, none of this date setting and bravado and distortion of Haggai pointing to himself is not as risky as it seems in his mind or in how it will be finally defined when this specific time comes and goes. And it will...
It is either a very calculated and clever move , to him, to undermine others and define it as "All will be reunited again on August 31st 2013, or it will be yet another Weinland miscalculation and foolish theology  putting Dave in the same category, or worse, than those who have been equally stupid about dates before him.   Dave has at least had years of experience in seeing the folly of others so why would he want to duplicate it?  Dave does not miscalculate in such a way in my opinion.   I choose the former, but it has not fully expressed itself which is why these announcements become more and more dramatic as the time draws near.  When all is finally revealed it may just be "are you kidding me!"   We'll see.
So....what am I saying.  Yes, I know I tend to repeat myself because I need to know you got it!  lol.     All the churches of God being reunited again under the one banner of the Restored Church of God and the leadership of David C Pack, does not happen as one has been lead to believe.  I suppose we picture all the cars backed up for miles in the closing scene from Field of Dreams as minister and member flow to Wadsworth on that day.  Nope....  In some way Dave, in his mind and with the permission of Ol' Minor Prophet Haggai, will redraw the Church of God boundaries to take in the unsuspecting and even unapproving.  Somehow he will undercut  and undermine others to his advantage. In effect, he will steal the sheep.  It may not be what we all have in mind in any literal sense.  It will make perfect sense to the Apostle Dave. 
On the other hand, if Dave really thinks Haggai predicts his coming after HWA (which sounds insane to me personally) as on the surface it sounds, this would indicate, to me, that a major deterioration in his thinking has occurred. His Church is doomed in one month and his building projects will screech to a grinding halt for lack of funds both now and forever.  People are not THAT stupid to follow  mentally, emotionally, spiritually and certainly not financially yet another fool. He can forget about radio and TV because he will just be another footnote of prophecy misapplied and televangelists making fools of themselves.  Dave is not the type to trust Christ/God/Angels or Satan to do or not do what he already know is in the works in his mind and humanly doable...conscience or not. .  When Ron Weinland told everyone "Christ is doing ...." this or that or "God will..." this or that, he didn't know how but trusted that it would be so.  He really stuck his neck out.  When Dave says similar things, I believe he has done more of his homework and taking less of a chance, in his mind, than it might appear to everyone else.  This is just my view of the difference between the two men.
I may be totally wrong with stinky instincts that stink, but I have no problem with being wrong.  I have a problem with having sat for years on my instincts and gut feelings only to see what I thought would be the outcome of such stupidity actually becoming the outcome I envisioned, including for me personally.  So I guess I do this to make up for lost intuitions.  I also have a problem with seeing people taken advantage of but that is the defender of the underdog in me and it is hard wired.  
If Dave is really this theologically stupid and it is all literally as perceived, then the end is near for his church.  One man shows collapse quickly in such cases.  But it is possible that what he calls "Reunited Again"  is not what we would call it.  Stay tuned I suppose.  It won't be long now.....Maybe I'm just bored.  :)
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Byker Bob said...

Dennis, while I personally would vote for the meltdown, born out of desperation over things that are not happening, you may indeed be right. Members have melted down over unrequited expectations, and most certainly a minister can as well.

If you are right, I still believe Pack is in trouble. It seems only obvious that people in the ACOGs have heard enough "rhetoric" over the years and will not be receptive to mere words, especially from this particular source. They want to see the action which has been promised. If, and only if, they see definitive action, they will rethink their behavior and options. If Dave has preplanned something slick, he's not going to win this time. He may discover instead that he has reached the apex of the Peter principle. That would most certainly be a good thing!


DennisCDiehl said...

I hesitated to speculate as I have,but I feel I "know" him and there is more to this than Weinlandisms.....

Anonymous said...

I wonder if this all makes sense to Pack because he thinks he is building the 'House of the Lord' in Wadsworth.

FWIW; I think this date does have an end time fulfilment, but it was fulfiled in 1917, not 2013, when Mrs Armstrong had her vision of the Second Coming.

Anyone studying Haggai wou;ld find that there are a couple of other dates mentioned, the 24th day of the 9th month being the most significant.

So I feel Pack has more to reveal, and several fall back dates in case all does not go to plan.

Steve Kisack said...

Byker Bob said...
If you are right, I still believe Pack is in trouble. It seems only obvious that people in the ACOGs have heard enough "rhetoric" over the years...

MY COMMENT: Huh? That's all they EVER hear. I haven't been to "church" for 17 years, and I know if I went back for a visit(puke!) I would hear the same old rhetoric. "Submit to govment", "Tithe", "The sabbath, the sabbath, the sabbath", "The holydays, the holydays, the holydays, "This is the true church", "We're in the time of the end", "Things are getting worse", "Blah, blah, blah". I know because this is the garbage that my parrot in-laws talk about after every sabbath in COGWA.

Sweetblood777 said...

I keep wondering if crazy Dave has anything up his sleeve to make this happen.

For this to come about, or at least for it to have a chance at all, would mean that REAL miracles would have to happen. That all would truly be powerfully lead by the spirit, to act quickly to join the RCG.

Failing this, is Dave planning behind the scenes actions that would ensure that 3 cog leaders would indeed die. This obviously would be murder, and murder isn't anything new to a person of a demented mind.

Anonymous said...

Maybe Davie has a few leaders of tiny groups secretly lined up (prearranged) to join him on that day.

Other than that, nothing will happen, and the theory of Dennis seems the most plausible one that I have heard. To dismiss Dave as crazy is tempting and too easy, but he's too smart for that, so he's probably up to something devious. What he comes up with will only be limited by his creativity, not God's.

Corky said...

"God haunted"...yeah, that's pretty much it. However, "the end of all things" (1 Pet. 4:7) has been extended so that all can come to repentance because God is not willing that any should perish (2 Pet. 3:9) - AND, since there are new humans born every minute of every day we can extend this time even further if need be. We can extend it to...well, the end of the world, or the species, whichever comes first.

Retired Prof said...

Corky, I read recently that the biosphere has only about two billion years left before the sun expands so much as it morphs into a red giant that its surface gets close enough to boil off our oceans. So the COG preachers who prophesy our demise in a lake of fire are essentially correct. The only thing off is their timing.

Corky said...

I figure a planet killer asteroid will take care of us before the sun does its thing, Prof.

Of course, we all know that hell will freeze over before the ACoGs reunite.