There is one thing that self-appointed Church of God prophets are good at is tap dancing around certain subjects. Unlike the real prophets of old, who actually predicted things, our crop of self-appointed ne'er-do-wells, tap dance around and make ambiguous thought-farts on how they think things should be.
Today, the Church of God's biggest know-it-all is trying to get you to believe that Petra may not be the final place of safety. Nothing sets Armstrongsm apart from most of Christianity than this pet doctrine. For decades, thanks to Loma Armstrong, the church has taught that right before the tribulation hits that all of the countries of the world would expel Church of God members and ship them off to Petra where they would receive special training to be kings, priests, and god's in some magical world to come.
Then the church imploded and hundreds of self-appointed gurus set themselves up as the one and only true Church of God. This created a massive public relations crisis in the COG movement. How could they ALL claim that they alone were going to Petra? Who was going to be in charge when they all showed up at once and started their little bitch fests and power struggles. What a nightmare scenario this presented! Then, to top that off, there were Christian outside the Armstrongite movement that also belive in Petra as a place of safety. How can the true Christians share Petra with so-called Christians?
James Malm solved that problem and claimed his few followers were going to go to Pella. Other COG ministers claim people will be protected in place, wherever they are. Today, we have the Great Bwana to Africa and Savior of 299 Caucasians trying to convince us that Petra may be just a stopping off point as true believers move on to a new location at Bozrah.
Where might the place of safety in the wilderness be?
Someone asked me about the possibility of Bozrah being the “place of safety.”
Many have wondered if Petra could be the place.
After doing some scriptural research, I ran across the following warning about Petra and Bozrah possibly being the place from Tim McHyde:
Is Petra the “Prepared Place” of Safety For Israel or You?
Petra, Jordan was once the stronghold of the Edomites and later the capital city of the Arab Nabateans. …
Will Petra become the number one safe destination of Israelites in the end times, as well? Some people think so and feel they have Bible prophecy to back this up.
The most popular version of the speculation around Petra is that the Jews escaping from the Battle of Armageddon will find refuge there. Some Old Testament passages mentioning the city are used to support this idea …
Others, believe Petra to be the place that the “true church” will be protected in fulfillment of Revelation 12.
Both views argue based on Scripture and the city’s excellent defensive structure. It is mountainous and its main entrance is a long narrow rock wadi, called the Siq. What better location for people to be safe from attack, right?
Supporters also claim that the city could hold 144,000 people, the number of Israelite evangelists listed in Revelation 7 and 14. The Worldwide Church of God believed that there would be 144,000 of their members who made it to there.
The Petra theory has its appeal. But is it truly grounded in Scripture or even realism? …If you search the Bible for the name of the city Petra, you will not find it. Instead of that modern Greek name for the city, you have to search for the Hebrew equivalent, Sela (or Selah). Both words mean rock. …
It seems like the main basis of the Petra speculation is the area’s natural features. .. The springs have dried up long ago. …
As far as how many people can comfortably live there, it’s woefully inadequate. This is a small city with an estimated past top population of 20,000. Whether you think Israel or Christians will be sent by God there, it equals far, far more than 20,000 or double that. The remnant of either Israel or the church is more likely to be in the millions. …
As for the theory about Israel fleeing the land before Armageddon, that also is problematic.
A little later the doubly-blessed self-appointed prophet proclaims:
While I do agree, based upon many scriptures, that Jordan seems to be the place and God will likely use a prophet to say when (and where), I disagree with the author’s view on many points–Jordan, to cite one example, will NOT be evacuated. But I do agree that Revelation 12:14-16 is talking about protection for faithful Christians and NOT physical Israel. As far as the old Worldwide Church of God goes, it speculated, but did not insist, on Petra being the place.
Petra is large enough for the Philadelphian Christians to be protected–and they are the ONLY Christians promised protection from the Beast (cf. Revelation 3:7-10)–most Christians will NOT be protected (cf. Revelation 12:14-17).
Nothing frosts the butts of self-appointed COG prophets more than having to accept there might be other non-COG Christians, or worse yet, other COG members there when they arrive.
The reason I found this article was because of looking for views of some on the place of safety and Bozrah.
As far as Petra or Bozrah go there are several clues in the Bible that suggest that a Jordanian location makes sense. But part of this is based upon where the place of protection is not.
Isaiah thus indicates this place will be a fortress of rocks for those that escape from the nations (note: the escaping from the nations suggests that groups with origins in CGI, such as ICG and CEM, are in error for teaching that God intends to protect people where they are).
It is also of interest to note that those that escape will be assembled–they are not lone independents–this is also consistent with Zephaniah 2:1-3
Gather yourselves together, yes gather together, O undesirable nation, Before the decree is issued, Or the day passes like chaff, Before the day of the LORD’s fierce anger comes upon you, Before the day of the LORD’s anger comes upon you! Seek the LORD, all you meek of the earth, who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden in the day of the LORD’s anger.
The Hebrew words translated as Zephaniah means “Yahweh Hides” or “Yahweh Has Hidden” (Holy Bible: Vine’s Expository Reference Edition, p. 826). Notice that a decree is issued, apparently by a church leader–and I believe that the leader will be part of the Continuing Church of God. This would seem to happen after the gospel has been preached enough to the world as a witness (Matthew 24:14), Jewish sacrifices are stopped, and the abomination is set up (Daniel 9:27; 11:31) per Jesus’ statements in Matthew 24:15-16.
It remains my prayer that those who are Philadelphians and are scattered in groups will soon assemble together, before it is too late.
A little later Bwana Bob talks about Bozrah.
In terms of its location from Jerusalem, Petra (Sela on some Bible maps) is mainly south and slightly east of Jerusalem. Bozrah is also in the right general direction, as are other locations in Jordan.
Now it is also possible that the actual place of protection could simply just be near Petra or perhaps the location will be far from it.
In the early days of Armsgtrongism, Petra was not that much of a tourist destination. Now it is packed with hundreds of thousands of tourists a year. Bwana Bob can't have those tourists coming in and gawking as his 299 Caucasians and their 3,000 Africans.
Realize that Petra is one of the leading, if not THE leading, tourist destination in Jordan, hence there could be economic and other factors against that precise location itself (though if only a small amount of Christians flee, that might be tolerable, and even helpful to, the tourist industry possibly as a ‘side-show’ or to be of cultural or prophetic interest). Other than the aspect of caves (which does not mention the amount of caves), it should be noted, that many other areas in Jordan also are in the right direction and fit the description of the place–so it is possible that the Church may flee into Jordan and not stay in Petra, but somewhere else in Jordan or a neighboring area.
It is also possible that the true Philadelphian Christians will stay in Petra for a time and then go elsewhere–and that is something I have written about before.
The thought of having to spend 3 1/2 years listening to Bwana Bob preach as he bounces and flounces is not a sight to imagine or desire.
21 comments:
In the post-1972 years, a few ministers said, prior to the year nothing happened, they told their congregations that they would probably be "protected in place" not Petra.
And the disfellowshipped GTA completely buried the Petra doctrine, giving an account of how it began.
So now, only "true Philadelphians" (ie CCOG members) get to go to live in caves in Jordan now? And it's because Bob is the only prophet who knows when to flee?
Locally, a Protestant deacon gave a "Rapture" lecture, claiming Paul (in 1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thess. 4) was describing a "Christians only" rapture, which was different from the "Second Coming". In a Q&A, a lady asked what the risen Christians will be doing between their rising in the air and Christ's second return. Stumped, the deacon gave the impression they'll all be "floatin' around somewhere" - neither in Heaven nor on Earth. Hmm, this all conflicts with the deacon's church, who holds to the "when you die you go to Heaven or Hell" doctrine.
This is kind of the usual for apocalyptic Millerites. They get way ahead of themselves and argue where the "place of safety" is going to be before they have sorted things out exegetically. Splinterdom follows a number of variations on the idosyncratic Armstrongist understanding on this topic. Back near the beginning of this debate, way before all the geographic speculations, is an exegetical proglem. To wit:
"A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars." (Rev 12:1 - Sounds very much like a description of the Jews with the twelve tribes. In context, Rev 11 contains significant Temple imagery.)
further,
"And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron. But her child was snatched away and taken to God and to his throne; and the woman fled into the wilderness..." (Rev 12:5-6).
Verses 5-6 obviously refer to Jesus. But the woman cannot be the New Covenant church. That church did not give birth to Jesus historically. Jesus, instead, established that church. The woman who birthed Christ was the Old Testament "church" or Judaism. Jesus was "birthed" by the Jewish Nation and Late Second Temple Judaism. To label the woman to be the New Covenant church creates a sequence of events that does not work. I believe that it is likely that "the woman" is a remanant of the devout Jewish people who escaped the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
Rev 12:17 does clearly mention the church: "Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus."
The woman, Old Testament Israel, has The Child who is the Messiah and then has other children. The other children are not at the place in the wilderness with the Woman. The Dragon "went off" to find them. So the New Covenant church, if anything, is depicted as not being at the place in the wilderness.
Does Splinterdom have an exegesis that resolves this issue in their favor? Do they have any midrash for their alternative rendering? Can we really apply type-antitype to this and why? Is there any good reason to believe that this did not all transpire in 70 AD?
The Splinterist idea of the "Place of Safety" is a great monolith of belief resting on a fragile and slipping foundation - a foundation that needs shoring up if that is even possible. Why argue location for an idea that must be classed as fantasy unless someone can produce a good exegetical rationale.
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IF you end up with Pack , Flurry, Thiel, or Weinland, I would be ...
PETRIFIED!!
of Petra!
The "POS" was probably the most badly proof texted and anxiety producing fairytale promoted by WCG and it's emissary Gerald Waterhouse.
I read Petrified Bob's article last evening and mostly noted how much waffling this for sure dreamer and prophetic wonder was practicing. Typical of a man who wants some kind of special credit for his dreams and pretentions but none of the responsibility for actually having badly predicted or prophesied something that simply did not and never could come to pass.
The concept of prophets, those who an see into the future and accurately inform as to what will happen, as opposed to could happen, which anyone can do, is stupid. Futures change with the flap of butterfly wings as we should know by now. And if the future is all laid out in advance only to be divined by the delusional ones, then we are of all bit players and robots most miserable.
What Is Little Man Syndrome?
"Little man syndrome represents a condition with the inner complex due to ones short height. It is frequent in male population on certain public status or exhibit major functions in the community.
The inferiority syndrome represents a complex behavioral disorder that is characterized by the presence of specific emotions and feelings in regards to an individual’s height. In such disorder, there is a rooted opinion that leads to the sense of insecurity due to short height of an individual .
Additional synonym is Napoleon complex that describes theory that is present in males with short stature. In such individuals, there is a higher level of aggressive or domineering behavior present.
They are as well characterized with a sense of certain level of handicap and possible compensation in multiple spheres of their life.
Symptoms
The most characteristic of Napoleon syndrome is the smaller height in male individuals. They are commonly perceived as aggressive, loud and talkative that require additional attention in order to prove themselves.
In such individuals the more frequent are risk taking behavior and feelings of jealousy."
There are other possible explanations for short man syndrome however. For instance the mere fact that someone who is shorter may have more difficulty getting attention in general. They then may have developed louder behavior as a necessity and as a way to get others to take notice. If this brought positive reward, that would then be a form of positive reinforcement that could condition them to behave this way. The very stereotype of short man syndrome meanwhile might lead their behaviors to be perceived as stemming from their insecurity.
I can think of any number of the "less tall" ministers, HWA and GTA included, who seemed to be the most vocal, pushy and self centered.
Joe Peshi also comes to mind in Good Fellas, Casino, My Cousin Vinny and The Enforcer! lol
Besides "wiggle room" Bob does not enhance his credibility when he cites "clues".
Neo Therm noted: Verses 5-6 obviously refer to Jesus. But the woman cannot be the New Covenant church. That church did not give birth to Jesus historically. Jesus, instead, established that church. The woman who birthed Christ was the Old Testament "church" or Judaism. Jesus was "birthed" by the Jewish Nation and Late Second Temple Judaism. To label the woman to be the New Covenant church creates a sequence of events that does not work. I believe that it is likely that "the woman" is a remnant of the devout Jewish people who escaped the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
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Exactly right. Revelation was written for a Jewish/Christian group and not Gentiles, just before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70. Even running the symbols back in an astronomy program of "The Woman" i.e. the Constellation Virgo in the astro theology story of it all, with the sun above her and the Moon at her feet can be found easily the summer of 69/70 giving the author his story.
Revelation used Daniel to send the message of deliverance from the Romans. The problem was that just as in the 160's BCE when Daniel was actually written to encourage the Maccabeans in the problems with Rome, the Jewish Christians were going to be destroyed, yet again, by the Romans in less than the 3.5 years predicted by Revelation. Both failed prophecies.
The woman is clearly the Jewish nation who birthed Jesus the Messiah as understood by Jewish Christians, was threatened by the Dragon, which was in the sky story, Ophiuchus, with his serpent at her feet, but delivered on the "wings of an Eagle", or the constellation Aquila, the eagle, nearby the Serpent, in the night sky.
NIGHTFLIX!
Neo Therm and Dennis are right.
The woman in Revelation is clearly Israel who birthed Jesus the Messiah.
Early Judaism, after the fall of the second temple and the destruction of Jerusalem was heavily influenced over the next centuries by mythology and especially by the constellations. Without the temple and sacrifices Judaism had to be invented anew. This sounds harsh but a reading of Jewish mystical books such as the Zohar and Talmud and of the early Jewish sages is a ‘revelation’ in itself. These writings are often in direct opposition to the Tanach (Old Testament). Yet they have attained the ascendancy over the Tanach in Orthodox Judaism.
But back to Bob Thiel and co. I cannot help but feel their reading and ‘understanding’ of the ‘place of safety’ is a gross misunderstanding and interpretation of scripture, but that is parr the course for these men and groups.
PS If there was a POS, I would want to open a Petra-Hut and make some bucks off the bored masses. :) And the toilet paper concession...
Dennis 11:13
In other words, if Revelation can be applied to the end time and there is an end time POS and some Splinterists manage to get there by hook or crook, prophecy indicates that they will find some devout Jews there already.
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Neo Therm noted: Verses 5-6 obviously refer to Jesus. But the woman cannot be the New Covenant church. That church did not give birth to Jesus historically. Jesus, instead, established that church. The woman who birthed Christ was the Old Testament "church" or Judaism. Jesus was "birthed" by the Jewish Nation and Late Second Temple Judaism. To label the woman to be the New Covenant church creates a sequence of events that does not work. I believe that it is likely that "the woman" is a remnant of the devout Jewish people who escaped the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
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Further, there are two groups in Revelation 12. One flies to the place of safety and the other is the one the dragon makes war with. The first group "gave birth to the man child"; this is clearly the Jews and it is not the Christians. The second group keeps the commandments of God and has the testimony of Jesus Christ; this is clearly the Christians and not the Jews. You can throw all kinds of dust in the air (like Rev 8, Luke 21, etc.) to try and show that Christians will go to the place of safety, but John went to great effort in Revelation 12 to clarify who goes to the place of safety and who doesn't.
They're all wrong anyway, because they are forgetting a critical element. The place of safety will be somewhere where "God's people" have to conquer or displace the people who currently own it. You know, the descendents of the Canaanites or Amalekites. Gotta have ''em if you want to resemble the models in the Bible. Bob Theil might be on to something there with his work in Africa.
I wonder what these ACOGs will do as climate change makes Petra and other Middle East sites to be uninhabitable. Desert cities are precisely the types of locales that climate refugees will be fleeing from, not fleeing to!
Double minded doubly blessed almost arrested for Sabbath keeping Cartoon Bob said, "Someone asked me about the possibility of Bozrah being the “place of safety.”
MY COMMENT - No one asked Bob about the possibility of Bozrah being the “place of safety. He made up "someone" in his own mind.
Richard
Double Minded Doubly Blessed almost arrested for Sabbath Keeping Cartoon Bob said, "As far as Petra or Bozrah go there are several clues in the Bible that suggest that a Jordanian location makes sense." Later he writes, "It is also possible that the true Philadelphian Christians will stay in Petra for a time and then go elsewhere–and that is something I have written about before."
MY COMMENT - I thought Dr. Bobby Thiel purports himself to be a PROPHET to the Church of God. Wouldn't he know or prophesy which location is the POS? Surely God does NOTHING without first revealing his secret to his Prophets (Amos 3:7). If Bob doesn't know which location is the POS, then God hasn't revealed his secret to him, and therefore is a strike against his claim that he is a Prophet.
Come on Bob! Put your big boy pants on and be a Prophet! Stop waffling and go on record as to where the Place of Safety is. This is something I would think a Prophet of God would know (Amos 3:7).
Richard
Thought of the Day - A double minded Bob Thiel is unstable in all his ways! (James 1:8)
For the non-cog: Would you believe if you were shown proof?
You might be right about the height complex.
I don't recall ever seeing Dr. Bob posting a picture of himself standing next to a tall person. Seems intentional? Does anyone know his height in his bare feet?
I know that the WCG theories regarding Petra were said to have been started by Loma Armstrong after she read National Geographic, However, an evangelist named W. E. Blackstone is generally credited with starting that theory in the USA during the 1940s. Blackstone was certain that Petra would be the secret hiding place for Jews fleeing the Battle of Armageddon. He invested $8,000, which was a small fortune in the 1940s, in Bibles, placing boxes of them in the caves of Petra. A booklet was published by the American Board of Missions to the Jews titled "The Man from Petra" regarding Blackstone. Reproductions are available at Nabataea.net.
Herbert prodigiously plagiarized and borrowed so many things from other teachers and groups that it is difficult to know if his teachings on Petra actually originated with Loma, or if he knew of Pastor Blackstone. The teachings of WCG were calculatingly concocted from numerous questionable sources, accompanied by claims that they were revealed truth and secrets not taught for over 1900 years. Members referred to HWA's interpretations as "what God says in the Bible" and still do today. The members of each splinter call their group "God's Church", and refer to their ministers as "God's ministers", and their teachings as "the truth", as if calling these all those things has the power to make it so.
When HWA cobbled together his theology to gain a following (and their tithes), why did he include such draconian teachings that I think limited the size of his church? I mean, things like some of the the Holy Days, (esp. the F of T), D & R, and healing. Wouldn't his have church grown bigger if he just scared the people with his end time prohecies and taught tithing? If you look at his teachings, which ones do you think repelled more people from becoming members? I think the healing teaching and the D&R teachings were among the most repellent teachings. Then might come the F of T. The other Holy Days don't seem to interfere with the lives of the members very much, but 8 days away from work . . . that's a bit much. If some teaching were never instituted they could have had more members which would mean more money, which I think was one of the main reasons HWA broke away from the C of G 7th Day. Plus, of course, narccisists must be their own boss and can't work under anyone else.
I thought the church was the bride of Christ and for the church to remain on earth during the tribulation would be like spousal abuse. This is why I think the church will be raptured. If makes sense if you recall the wedding proposals in that culture. A young man would approach a lady with a covenant, a bag of money and a glass of wine. She reads the covenant, counts the money, and if she agrees to it, she drinks the wine. The groom them goes to his father's house to prepare a room for her (I go to prepare a place for you . . in my father's house are many rooms). The young man return to father's house, fixes up a nice room, but only after the father inspects it, finds that the timing is right and the room is prepared for his bride (rather than looking like an old army barracks) does he tell his son, "Go get your bride." He approaches the house of his bride and he and his friends give her a bit of warning by shouting. He takes her to be with her. You can see the analogy between the Messiah coming for his bride, now knowing when it will be, only the father knows, he comes with a shout and off the church goes to heaven to be with the Lord. A knowledge of the marriage custom shines light on the end time events. It is while the church is in heaven that the tribulation begins and the hope that it happens not on the sabbath referes to the Jews fleeing Jerusalem, and has nothing to do with the church. That is my understanding of the subject. Though, I have been wrong before. After all, I did attend AC and spent 4 years in the WCG. When I teach in Africa, I usually preface my answers with, "It is my understanding . . ." rather than something that WCG ministers would do. I have come to hold my views using a light grip, rather than clinging to them for dear life. Sorry for rambling, but that's what old men do.
Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder [semeion] in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
To dance around the topic, when considering the verses below for support:
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Lk 1:6 And they [Zacharias and Elisabeth] were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Lk 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man wasThe saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time. just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
Lk 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
Lk 2:36a And there was one Anna, a prophetess...
Lk 2:37b which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.
Lk 2:38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
I prefer to see the woman, primarily, as faithful Israel -the Messiah will come from faithful Israel - faithful Israel before Christ leads to faithful Israel with the testimony of Jesus Christ (12:17 - the Israel of God, as opposed to Israel the Kingdom.
Da 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn [the Antichrist, aka the beast] made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Da 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. Cp. Acts 1:6.
While the focus of the NT is on the Israel of God and Revelation in particular on “the great tribulation” on the Church (7:14), the ‘great tribulation’ on Israel (Da 7:21, Jer 30:7) is included, but in the background.
So that, primarily, the “woman” - the Israel of God - includes those who will flee into the wilderness (12:6, 14); and those of the remnant who loved not their lives unto the death (12:11, 17).
“Perhaps it is best to understand the history of God’s people, where God’s salvation is worked out, as a continuum. The woman symbolizes the faithful people of God (cf. Rev 12:17) from whom and for whom the Messiah is born, The woman, then, refers to a people identified by their distinctive spirituality rather than ethnicity. Further, the woman’s birth pains and cries to God anticipate the messianic era, its restoration of the true Israel (cf. Isa 26:18 LXX; Gal 4:19), and its judgment of evil (cf. Matt 24:4-8)” (Robert W. Wall, Revelation, NIBC, pp.159-60).
1Ki 18:2 And Elijah went to show himself unto Ahab...
1Ki 18:3 And Ahab called Obadiah, which was the governor of his house. (Now Obadiah feared the LORD greatly:
1Ki 18:4 For it was so, when Jezebel cut off the prophets of the LORD, that Obadiah took an hundred prophets, and hid them by fifty in a cave, and fed them with bread and water.)
In the above typology Ahab and Jezebel picture the Beast and the false prophet. Baal worship promoted by Jezebel pictures the new religion set up by the false prophet to worship the beast after his death and resurrection.
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
This new ‘cult’ of the emperor will cut off both traditional-Sunday keeping Christianity, pictured by the religion of the norther kingdom introduced by Jeroboam, and Sabbath-keeping Christianity represented by the southern kingdom. And, of course the prophets in the caves picture the Church in a place of safety.
7.33 PM
Historically, God defines reality rather than being led by human traditions. But interesting analogy.
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