We've all asked the question as the madness of David C Pack unfolds week after week, "Why do they stay?"
For many reasons I suspect, all grounded in "I can't turn back now", like being heavily invested with "Send it in!" and the foolishness of "Common". Once you have given all, you can't give it again and denial of such a mistake in giving has to be put aside with maybe the next edition of Dave's, 'We never saw it, but now I do" will be correct. Of course, it won't. Not now and not ever. But that's not important yet...
While one of Dave's keep you in your seats techniques is to mock those who say, "I can't take it anymore!" as if that conclusion is some kind of deviant view, it should be the obvious view of a clear thinking human being sincerely stuck in the wrong place. Dave has and will give one plenty of reasons to not be able to take all this BS anymore. It's ok to conclude that and leave. The evidence is in.
https://exitsupportnetwork.com/expose-of-clarion-call-the-time-is-now/
Being warned and personally convinced that there is only one true Church, and it is the Restored Church of God will keep some in place. After all, the NT church had problems and were mistaken about a lot of end time things, but it was still the Church. Even Paul was mistaken so it is no problem that Apostle Pack is mistaken over and over.
Threatened with the loss of Eternal Life will keep one in place. And then there is the "fact" that you'll probably consider suicide if you leave. Fear, guilt and shame is the glue that holds many a butt to a seat they need to actually free themselves from.
And of course, "If my friends are still here, then it must be right, or will be at some point, because my friends are able to not be troubled by one failed prediction after the next by Mr. Pack. I mean, he's just human (for now) too and means well. If my friends can dismiss Mr. Pack's erroneous predictions and understanding, title taking and the general waste of our time week after week, I can too!
Or..."Maybe I just don't have enough faith, like my friends seem to have..yet"
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Following is a study related to why do they stay that can be helpful in answering this question as to "Why Do They Stay?".
While the concept of getting more and more people to join the church as a method of dismissing the reality of one failed fairy tale dreamed up by Dave is not a big factor with RCG at the moment, it might need to be in the near future. Dave left the studio and that which drew people to RCG, evidently, long ago and opted for this in-house lunacy, which is proving costly.
Now it is resulting in both monetary and member losses without the compensatory value of new people coming into RCG. They simply are not, and this is one reason why, as desperation grows in maintaining the Church and physical plant, paid for with "The Clarion Call" of years gone by, the danger inherent in Dave's delusions of who he believes he is in scripture and how short he imagines time to be before his Christ returns to Wadsworth grows.
It is also, however, conceivable that Dave Pack will panic at some time realizing that it's all falling apart and return to the studio and booklets to attract and replace the losses he currently is suffering and continues to suffer.
Desperate times require desperate measures and Dave dropping the current foolishness with a revelation from Christ that, "We never saw that all this prophetic inspiration was Christ showing me that I needed to preach the Gospel again to the world! But now I see it!....Who has the keys to the studio?"
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails
Festinger, Riecken and Schachter were already studying the effects of prophecy disconfirmation on groups of believers, when they read a story in a local newspaper headlined "Prophecy from Planet. Clarion Call to City: Flee That Flood. It'll Swamp us on Dec. 21"
The prophecy came from Dorothy Martin (1900–1992), a Chicago housewife who practised automatic writing, and it outlined a catastrophe predicted for a specific date in their near future. Seeing an opportunity to test their theories with a contemporary case study, the research team infiltrated the group of Martin's followers in order to collect data before, during and after the time the prophecy would be refuted.
Hypothesis
Festinger, Riecken and Schachter used the study to test their theories on how people might be expected to behave when faced with a specific type of dissonance, arising from a failed prophecy.
The team had seen that in some cases the failure of a prophecy, rather than causing a rejection of the original belief system, could lead believers to increase their personal commitment, and also increase their efforts to recruit others into the belief. They identified five conditions that they proposed could lead to this type of reaction:
Condition | Effect |
---|---|
"1. A belief must be held with deep conviction, and it must have some relevance to action, that is, to what the believer does or how he or she behaves." | Makes the belief resistant to change. |
"2. The person holding the belief must have committed himself to it; that is, for the sake of his belief, he must have taken some important action that is difficult to undo. In general, the more important such actions are, and the more difficult they are to undo, the greater is the individual's commitment to the belief." | Makes the belief resistant to change. |
"3. The belief must be sufficiently specific and sufficiently concerned with the real world so that events may unequivocally refute the belief." | Exposes believers to the possibility of their belief being disproved. |
"4. Such undeniable disconfirmatory evidence must occur and must be recognized by the individual holding the belief." | Exerts pressure on believers to abandon their belief. |
"5. The individual believer must have social support." | While an individual might be unable to resist the pressure to abandon their belief in the face of disconfirming facts, a group might be able to support each other to maintain the belief. |
In the case of all conditions being in place, their hypothesis was that believers would find it difficult to abandon their beliefs in the face of disconfirmation, would use their available social support to maintain their beliefs, and would try to increase consonance by recruitment through proselyting, on the grounds that "If more and more people can be persuaded that the system of belief is correct, then clearly it must after all be correct."
The research team considered that all of the conditions were likely to be fulfilled in the case study involving Martin and her followers.
In this case, if the group's leader could add consonant elements by converting others to the basic premise, then the magnitude of her dissonance following disconfirmation would be reduced. The research team predicted that the inevitable disconfirmation would be followed by an enthusiastic effort at proselyting to seek social support and lessen the pain of disconfirmation.
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Maybe Dave will come to his senses. Probably not.
25 comments:
is that safe sects?
They stay because they would rather listen to and follow the voice of a man than listen to and follow the voice of their Savior.
Anonymous Anonymous said...
They stay because they would rather listen to and follow the voice of a man than listen to and follow the voice of their Savior.
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I would not believe that to be actually true. People stay put in their churches precisely because they believe sincerely, they are listening to the voice of God and Jesus. No one says or believes they "Would rather listen to and follow the voice of a man than listen to the voice of their Savior".
That's just another way others can say, "Because I DO Listen to the voice of MY SAVIOR JESUS!", which may also be questionable but understandable.
No one says, "I know I attend the false church, but hey, it just works for me..."
PS, My own experience, when young as both a member and then pastor, concerning HWA and the title's thrown around for him such as "Apostle", "Elijah to Come", "Zerubbabel" etc seems a bit on the looney side, but who was I to know? Maybe God wants him to be that. I have no way of knowing so would let it slide. For me, the response to such glorious titles and statements tended, when young and naive, to be "well, whatever... it's still the true church".
I also knew HWA was going to die relatively soon and "perhaps I had come to the Church with a mind less inclined to such things as this?" Wrong! lol But, admittedly, it kept me in my seat way too long
In hindsight, of course, it seems stupid. In hindsight, those caught up with Dave will utter, "how could I have been so stupid" to themselves between 2:30 and 3:30 in the morning lying awake with their brain asking if they'd like it to bring up all the drama, trauma and insanity of their past again just for fun while they are hoping to get some sleep? Or is that just me? :)
NOTE:
This post has absolutely NOTHING to do with Joe Biden, unisex bathrooms, illuminati, Democrat agenda, Republicans, Jews, Tkach's, gays, horses, Giant Eagle, woke, COVID, school choice, Trump, Hillary, Watergate, abortion, Torah, clean and unclean meats, hair length, Grace Communion International, Church of God International, emoji's, or the price of gas.
These things are going straight into the trash bin.
Thanks Gary. I have notice an uptick in weird comments lately.
You have no idea the stuff I have had to delete lately. So absolutely crazy I have to read them two or three times to even understand what they are trying to say. In the past three weeks I have deleted over 200 comments that have absolutely nothing to do with the original posts
Blogger NO2HWA said...
NOTE:
This post has absolutely NOTHING to do with Joe Biden, unisex bathrooms, illuminati, Democrat agenda, Republicans, Jews, Tkach's, gays, horses, Giant Eagle, woke, COVID, school choice, Trump, Hillary, Watergate, abortion, Torah, clean and unclean meats, hair length, Grace Communion International, Church of God International, emoji's, or the price of gas.
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And this is precisely why I recently finally gave up on the Ambassador College Alumni Forum, which I had been a member of for the last couple of years. The lesson I learned from my experience there is that all the above infest the churches of God, split, splinter and sliver. Every damn conspiracy theory permeated the forum. Ministers, turned epidemiologists, declared the real truth of the Covid epidemic. Quackery was rampant and don't even ask about the far right politics that was the breeding ground for all manner of fuckery.
Anyway, I gave it as a useless endeavor. As well, good science done well was not something welcomed on the site either. This reality has always plagued the Churches who take the Bible as too literally true and any proof of that which is not supported by Biblical literalism is to be scorned by those there good at mockery and smart-assery.
Amen I guess :) Thanks Gary for filtering out the bilge. If left, it only attracts more useless comments that are way off topic which is another phenomenon I see here at times.
PS Dr James Tabor, who went on from AC to become a very credible and highly trained Biblical scholar as did Russel Gmirkin, contacted me behind the scenes and congratulated me for leaving the Alumini General Message Forum, or GMF as it is called. He hoped I would not be tempted to return as "one cannot deal effectively with that kind of ignorance". And this was true in my experience there. I have been clean now for a month and attend "On and On Anonymous" meetings every week.
I do recognize that some here would say I am failing miserably here on Banned. :) There is little to compare between the two however in the quality of the contributions.
"No one says, "I know I attend the false church, but hey, it just works for me."
They don't openly say that, but I believe that many believe just that. They know their church and religion is a Pharisaic fraud.. That some ACOG ministers and members spoke HWAs name in reverential tones told me that they worshipped him rather than God. Like demons, they know the truth, but reject it. Some members do lie to themselves, but deep down they know what's really happening.
To them, church is a social club, a home sweet home environment.
Posting said ; "Dave left the studio and that which drew people to RCG, evidently, long ago..."
Surely Davey discovered as have all of the COGS , that marketing costs to get just one new, outside member , is now well north of $100k for each one. The new member will NEVER , on average, be able to tithe/contribute enough to recapture the marketing cost.
Thus spending money on marketing is a net loss to the org. Cannibalizing the current devotees through the mechanism of "Common" was much more profitable, but required the anointing of "Godhood" or religious title of authority for Pack.
I forgot the Nazis in that list.
To NO2WHA
Sorry to hear you have to ‘police’ the comments section here on Banned.
Unfortunately it is indeed a sign of the times. The amount of folks I know who are drunk on conspiracy theories and the like is remarkable. I have friends, not associated with Armstrongism in any way that see the world through this lens.
Here in NZ we are heading into an election and the conspiracy theories floating around are simply bizarre, and in many cases are believed by a large group of people. Sane voices……..where are they?
Keep up the good work.
Dennis, very insightful and well-informed article. It explains a lot of the behaviors in RCG. The more DCP fails, the more their faith builds. The more disappointment comes to the members, the more excitement for the next time. What a destructive cycle! DCP keeping people there has less to do with religion and more to do with psychology. I do not think people stay because "they don't read their Bibles" -- I think they stay because they have been beaten down and brainwashed. The horrible, wicked ministers at HQ supporting their human idol set the worst possible example for the brethren. People look up to those men to be the shepherds guarding the sheep, but they are hirelings and care not for the sheep.
It's sad what is going on there. Thank you again, Dennis.
PS - #Joe Biden, unisex bathrooms, illuminati, Democrat agenda, Republicans, Jews, Tkach's, gays, horses, Giant Eagle, woke, COVID, school choice, Trump, Hillary, Watergate, abortion, Torah, clean and unclean meats, hair length, Grace Communion International, Church of God International, emoji's, and the price of gas. :)
I gave up along time ago trying to figure out why people stay with these outrageous splinters. It goes beyond the frogs, they burned to a crisp when the water was gone. Stockholm Syndrome? Eventually people wake up from that. Stupidity? Most of the people I met in the old WCG were not below the national average IQ. Some of the stalwarts were some pretty sharp cookies! The sabbath? Something about going to Temple, or joining a Chabad, or even becoming a Messianic Jew just doesn't seem to meet the needs. Codependency? That might partially explain it. Some people seem to be born to a series of codependencies.
I've come to the conclusion that members like the prophecy, even though it never kicks in. One has to admit, it's a hell of a carrot! I think most ACOG splinter members believe their leaders will eventually get it right! I also believe that members have a need for deprivation or asceticism. They thrive on sacrifice, even if their sacrifices have no payoff. They believe that the payoff is deferred to the Kingdom. So, common. No problem. It's part of the game. No medical attention? Avoiding it shows you are trusting God. Eschewing the medical profession has almost become mainstream. Can't wear a bikini, or Levis unless the fly is on the hip? Hey, the Amish are happy and they have to put up with much more severe restrictions.
Those who are splinter members really like weird dos and don'ts, because they create activities which demonstrate their commitment. I'm not comparing these folk to extreme Jesuits, but the Jesuits flagellate themselves, and kneel their way up flights of concrete or stone stairs, and would never consider leaving the church over pedophile priests. ACOG members are simply acting out a minority subset of human behavioral patterns. I think what pisses most of us off is that they expect the rest of us to do as they do! They have a totally different concept of self-preservation.
Thanks 11:54, you shared better than my filtered out one(s) of why we wonder how RCG folk stay there with Davy-wavy.
I thought it was because they were politically bent "right" & my crummy comment got filtered out by hardworking mods, thanks to all and I'll clean it up, sorry I went that way.
OK, now that is funny.
Luke 16:31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
I don't buy that all the members in these groups are brainwashed victims. In the early days, I like many others was brainwashed. But even then I could sense that some things didn't add up, and that the ministers were behaving like thugs rather than like Christians. If a person is trying to please God, they will eventually begin to question what they have been taught. And as Luke 16:31 above points out, it's not just what Moses taught, but God's laws acting on them that gives proof of what's right. When ACOG members ignore this, then they fall into the latter category of knowingly refusing correction.
The only people I feel sorry for are the members who are spiritually struggling, and feel that they have to attend an abusive group in order to spiritually survive. These poor folks are trapped.
About the central hypothesis of *When Prophesy Fails*: "In the case of all conditions being in place, their hypothesis was that believers would find it difficult to abandon their beliefs in the face of disconfirmation, would use their available social support to maintain their beliefs, and would try to increase consonance by recruitment through proselyting, on the grounds that "If more and more people can be persuaded that the system of belief is correct, then clearly it must after all be correct."
The cartoon in the original post points not to minor offshoots of the main body of confirming evidence, such as Armstrong and its offshoots, but to the trunk itself, which has endured for more than two thousand years.
I mean, everybody could see that already, so call me Captain Obvious. I just couldn't resist noting it down.
You could make a cartoon like that about any leader, including Charles Darwin, Bill Gates, Biden, Carl Sagan, etc.
People stay with pack because their friends and family are there, because they are afraid to leave, and because all the alternatives have their own problems. And maybe God does not care what the drama queen in the pulpit says, as long as the guy in the pew lives a good Christian life.
There are thinkers, and there are followers.
Human belief is a powerful force for both good and evil. There are people who believe that John-John Kennedy is still alive and is in league with Donald Trump in saving the USA. Then there are people who believe in a First Century Jewish Messiah named Jesus. I belong to the latter category. I am an ex-Armstrongist Trinitarian Christian. I can rail against Q-anon but, in fact, outside observers, like Dennis, might well look at conspiracy theories and Christianity as cut from the same cloth.
I do not believe that I can prove the existence of God to anyone, no matter how obvious it seems to me. And the conspirators cannot prove that John-John Kennedy still exists. The Scientific Method seems to be of no help in either case. So, we are at parity. The only credentialing that Jesus gives is a simple:
“You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?”
If one belief leads to a peaceful life of concern for neighbors and the other leads to someone taking an assault rifle and driving to Washington, D.C. to kill people, this is an intelligible difference to most people. Not everyone, of course. It is after all the USA – land of the free and home of the brave and the country of many looney-tunes (more than we ever thought). Jesus brought fruits of the Kingdom of God with him – the Gospel was preached and people were healed, for instance.
The rejoinder of most critics to my assertion above is that Christianity, throughout its history, has sponsored many dark events. Just like all other conspiracy theories. But this view typically overlooks the almost pervasive phenomenon of nominalism within Christianity. Many people who “wear the patch” just are not converted Christians and their fruits align with this. I have been accused of being judgmental by critics of Christianity in the past for pointing this out in some form or another. But I think this criticism is just a rhetorical strategy. If everyone who wears the patch can be classed together, all manner of un-nuanced accusation can be successfully concocted.
Christianity is not just a belief among other beliefs. There are people who walk in The Way. Though it may require subtlety, you can come to know them and their upstream beliefs by their fruits.
Scout
All of that shit listed at 10:39 is probably always on everyone's minds. Probably best to have a safety zone where we just don't bring it up. Kinda shocking that it's so pervasive at the GMF, but then we call it Embarrassing College for a reason, don't we?
I overstayed just.in.case. I was never really hook/line/sinker but after I had my kids I didn't want them to suffer in the tribulation. Such a moron, what a hypocrite.
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