Friday, June 7, 2013

Is Dave Pack Being A Modern Day Charlemagne In Regards To Tithing?

Tithing Re-examined by Dwight Pryor

Thanks to a reader for sending this to me.

Here is an interesting short discussion on tithing and why it is NOT a requirement today for Christians.  This goes against all of Armstrongism, because that is the money making engine for the church.  Instead of people freely giving because they feel blessed, they are forced to tithe, the antithesis of everything in Scripture.

A few comments from the 17 minute piece.

  • Tithing not about accumulating material goods.  Tell that to Dave Pack and Gerald Flurry!
  • Not legally bound to tithe but give generously, joyously, periodically and proportionately.   Was for the community of Israel and is not relevant to us today.
  • The new testament talks about giving generously, not tithing.
  • Preachers who put their congregations under enormous guilt and preach a kind of legalism insisting that they give 10% because that church is the storehouse, the right to collect it and use it as they see fit.  This describes the broad majority of Armstrongite churches today.
  • Those that espouse tithing base it on the Hebrew scriptures and NEVER tell you the whole story.  A Jew in the bible is to give between 20-25% of their income.
  • Orthodox Jews do not tithe today because the Temple does not exist. However, as an ethnic group, Jews give more proportionately than any other group in America.
  • Tithing was not done by the New Testament church,

  • Middle ages, 6th century,  Tithing imposed by the church under direction of Charlemagne when the church joined forces with the state.  It was especially forced upon the Jews.  Its was imposed to build the great edifices today.  They were built by imposed state taxes called tithing.  This sounds exactly like Dave Pack.  He has to build his great edifices in Wadsworth to make a name for himself.  In order to do that he imposes tithing and demanded offerings. He can't accomplish that in his writings or by his character, so has to intimidate and impose his demands in order to build his large edifices.


Corky said...

Well, see...they have to have those visible edifices as symbols of their faith because they don't have any of those old, mundane, invisible edifices of love, joy, peace, goodness, generosity and junk like that.

I mean, how else is the world going to know that 'they' are the 'true' church of God without all those treasures built on the earth?

Anonymous said...

Tithing is the powerhouse engine that makes COG's run.

Tithing is absolutely an Old Covenant Command for ancient Israel. The New Testament places emphasis on taking care, willingly, of the poor, needy and widowed, and gifts from the heart to the church, as one is able, while all serve as ambassadors of Christ.

My opinion: There is ABSOLUTELY no, repeat, NO New Testament command whatsoever on commanded tithing of any sort. It's from the heart. Old Covenant tithing laws were agricultural in nature, and were an integral part of the Mosaic law. What MONETARY tithing has done in this modern generation is enhanced the greed of the greedy and the love of money by the lovers of money posing as true ministers. It has placed the emphasis on phyiscal prosperity and corporate business success instead of where it needs to be. It has literally caused money to be the god of Christianity, and rips the concept of faith away from most churches. Tithing makes corporations dependent on finances, instead of dependence on godly provision. More then that, tithing more often then not robs the poor and feeds the rich, the opposite of christian Godly principle. In large churches, it causes the few to be luxuriously wealthy, and the poor to be guilted to give more. It corrupts good hearts to become wicked and creates an idol that should never be an idol.

In regards to Armstrongism, it's not just one tithe - of MONEY - it's three - PLUS offerings, PLUS funding, etc. etc. - it is ABSOLUTELY against the principles of Christianity, and to me, the absolute epitome of greed at the expense of the poor. Shameful isn't the word for it.

Sweetblood777 said...

No one or church has a legal right to the tithe. It was given to the Levites and was considered to be a Covenant of Salt, which makes the agreement perpetual.

Num 18:19 All the heave offerings of the holy things which the sons of Israel shall lift up to YAHWEH, I have given to you and to your sons, and to your daughters with you, by a never ending statute, a covenant of salt, it shall be forever before YAHWEH to you and to your seed with you.

Num 18:20 And YAHWEH said to Aaron, You shall have no inheritance in their land, nor shall you have any portion among them; I am your portion and your inheritance among the sons of Israel.

According to JFB on Num.18:19

It is a covenant of salt — that is, a perpetual ordinance. This figurative form of expression was evidently founded on the conservative property of salt, which keeps meat from corruption; and hence it became an emblem of inviolability and permanence. It is a common phrase among Oriental people, who consider the eating of salt a pledge of fidelity, binding them in a covenant of friendship. Hence the partaking of the altar meats, which were appropriated to the priests on condition of their services and of which salt formed a necessary accompaniment, was naturally called “a covenant of salt” (Lev_2:13).

The tithe was also only on food produced in the land of Israel, the increase being that was given by the favor of Yahweh. Nothing produced by man's hands was tithe-able, neither was money.

These that demand or even accept tithes are stealing. They are taking what is not legally theirs and do so by extortion.

While a church may request donations and may accept donations, they cannot legally accept tithes.

Anonymous said...

Very well stated. It is the fuel for the church engine and it is how the one man show can grow all out of proportioned to the man and make him a celebrity. Plus it is ever so much more easy spending the hard earned money of others.

What an affront it is for Dave Pack to ask members to fund his wish for a steuben trinket for his office at $25,000 I understand one man gave him the money. One fool if you ask me. I wonder how you write that off on your personal income tax? I wonder if the gentleman will get to take it back if Dave bounces him someday.

Give as you are able seems to escape the ministry of the COGs . Members must not have heard of it much either or are afraid to bring it up to the pastor.

The "Prove me now herewith.." and "See if I don't open the windows of heaven for you," are probably two of the lamest OT scriptures on the topic. Little was proven and windows stayed mostly glued shut as far as I could tell. The NT needs the OT to legitimize itself. Most all the Gospel stories of Jesus are rewrites of OT stories and not any kind of eyewitness account. You dont see Gospel writers saying things like, "And then Jesus and I went to Galilee," etc.

Tithing was the political tool of the Priests to take in all the goodies. The got real good at it in the OT. All the Bapitist ministers here are also pretty darn good at it as well bringing it up often on radio and in their churches. Without tithing many ministers and organizations would have to depend on average givings and their empires would shrink drastically.

No God is going to punish are not like anyone who gives what they are able instead of what they are commanded.


Anonymous said...

Please don't use the name Charlemagne in the same sentence as Dave,s name. He will start calling himself the fulfillment of Charlemagne.

M. T. Throne

Anonymous said...

But he already thinks he's Joshua!

Douglas Becker said...

Let me get this straight: Davey Pack is French?

Douglas Becker said...

OK, fine. Pay tithes to Davey -- just make sure they aren't on wages, since that is your own work and not based on a gift that God has given you in the form of land which creates the produce upon which you tithe.

Anonymous said...

Aren't urine and feces the primary product which the human body produces? I believe that these legalist teachers who constantly harp on minutiae should receive as they dish out! We really ought to send them 1/10 of the urine and feces which our bodies produce, and for that matter 1/10 of the same increase from our animals!

Miguel de la Rodente